Warriors off to battle the enemy get no support from Manila’s hipsters.
(Source: Inquirer.net)
Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte’s proclamation of Martial Law over the entire Mindanao region following the military operation in Marawi City that resulted in protracted battle with the Maute terrorists has given members of the Liberal Party and anti-Martial Law advocates reason to make more noise. When before they were simply nit-picking on his tirades, now they think they are justified in calling him a dictator. Never mind that Congress and the Judiciary are still functioning and never mind that the fact that they can still make noise and complain about Duterte already proves that the country is not under a dictatorship.
Frankly, a lot of so-called anti-Martial Law activists are going too far. They used to be just lame, but now some of them are saying things that could potentially crush the morale of members of the military. The military is already fighting violent terrorists in Mindanao, but they still get a bad rap from activists who do nothing but talk about the horrors of Martial Law during the Marcos years. They equate Martial Law with abuse and violence. It’s as if they do not trust the members of the military to do the honourable thing.
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It’s bad enough that the Philippine military doesn’t have the right equipment and technology to carry out their mission in keeping the country safe, it’s worse when they don’t have the support of the civilians they are supposedly trying to protect. Just today, 13 more marines were killed trying to secure villages in Marawi. Sadly, we can hardly expect any sympathy from anti-Martial Law activists since they seem to sympathise more with the terrorists and want to make sure the latter are getting their “human rights” respected.
As of this writing, there has been no report of human rights abuses committed by the military so far. So we can be forgiven for saying that some anti-Martial Law activists are being irrational in their fear. If their only basis are the human rights abuses during the Marcos years, then it only means there is a lack of trust in Philippine society in general. If they think that the military’s behaviour hasn’t changed even with the new breed of soldiers under new leadership, then that says a lot about us as Filipinos. If after more than 30 years, anti-Martial Law activists still cannot move on from the Marcos years, then it means the leaders who took over after Marcos failed to instil the right attitude and principles that would earn members of the military respect from civilians.
What the soldiers are doing is not for the faint-hearted. A regular person would not be able to go out and face the possibility of death head-on. The soldiers also have to sleep anywhere under extreme weather conditions with little food supply. The anti-Martial Law activists meanwhile, are insulting the bravery of these soldiers while in the comfort of their homes. They may be against Martial Law, but anti-Martial Law activists should learn to separate their hatred for the abuses committed in the past from what the soldiers are trying to achieve at present, which is to contain the spread of terrorism.
Some of the anti-Martial Law advocates justify their fear and loathing by saying that they experienced the abuses and violence first-hand during the Martial Law years. Do they have to experience the kind of abuses and violence perpetuated by terrorists affiliated with ISIS to support Duterte’s Martial Law today? One would think that the horror stories coming out from countries like Libya and Syria – countries that have strong ISIS presence – would be enough for all Filipinos to support Duterte’s efforts to crush the Maute group swiftly.
Yes, there are members of military who abuse their power, but between the military and terrorist groups, it’s a no-brainer, Filipinos should support the former.
Unfortunately, there are even lawmakers who seek a Supreme Court ruling to nullify Martial Law despite being presented with strong evidence that the Maute group had been planning to capture key cities in Mindanao for some time. The military even presented evidence that the terrorist group had millions in cash, cheques and a stockpile of ammunition to carry out their plan. Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana also confirmed “that martial law is imperative to once and for all address security concerns in the entire Mindanao immediately and decisively.” But of course some lawmakers like Senator Antonio Trillanes would rather pretend not to hear that. They are still adamant that Martial Law is not necessary. As a former soldier, he doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge the urgency of the situation. It seems he only cares about contradicting Duterte’s decision.
Someone has to put an end to the nonsensical reasoning of the Liberal Party and anti-Martial Law activists. They are making it harder for the government to do its job. Duterte is already fighting drug lords and terrorists with very limited resources. Now he has to deal with political opponents who just want to grab power. This tug of war between politicians amidst the criminal activities going on in the underworld will ensure the Philippines will remain backwards for decades.
In life, things are not always what they seem.
I can’t speak for any of the ‘hipsters’, but my objection to Martial Law is PRECISELY that brave soldiers are being killed. Remember ‘lions led by donkeys’ from WW1? That’s what we’ve got here.
I know a couple of guys in the military, including one high up the food chain. Good men, all of them. I’d trust them with my life. The problem is, the Philippine army is all volunteers. At the officer level it’s the usual story: an excuse to skim off the cream, and at the grunt level it’s an excuse for an “iron rice bowl”. The good intentions of good men can be easily sabotaged by the 5% of crooks and assholes who infest every level of Filipino society and make life miserable for everyone else: because nobody calls them out, nobody fires them, and nobody puts them in jail.
As I’ve said in other threads, Martial Law will fail not because the press or the “yellows” are raining on your parade, but because Filipinos are doing what they always do: firefighting. They lurch from crisis to crisis, never planning more than 8 hours ahead, never preparing for what might happen next, never fixing up a Plan B, and ALWAYS aiming low. The army are up against an untrained rabble, and they’re already taking casualties. What more evidence do you need to know that they’re simply not up to the job? Get the poor lads out of there, give them some training, and then go back in with guns blazing.
@marius
The lack of proper training of the soldiers is a separate issue from Martial Law. Martial Law is not the reason there are casualties in the military.
Besides, anti-Martial Law activists are against Martial Law because they fear military abuse, not military deaths. But their fear is based on the past experience during Marcos years when there were no threats from terrorist groups with links from foreign jihadists. Please read the article again.
Martial Law in Mindanao is necessary. There is already an open rebellion in Mindanao. Maute/ISIS group has taken over Marawi City.
Those who complain Martial Law; should go and live in Syria or Lybia or Iraq; where ISIS , has imposed Sharia Law.
Women will be sold as sex slaves…they will have no right, some sort of sub-human, since they are not Muslims. Their heads will be chopped off, for crimes, they committed. They have to abide to the Sharia Law, with or without their consent.
Women will be properties of their husbands. They cannot go out without male escort. Women will wear , hijab or Burqa. Women cannot drive and vote. Young women will undergo , female circumcision…
So those fighting Duterte’s Martial Law, should think it over, what you will be facing under ISIS Sharia Law…
Ilda: you can’t be serious. Are you? Surely the two main prerequisites of implementing Martial Law are:
1) A functioning military and
2) A functioning legal system
Hence the words “Martial” and “Law”. As I remarked to Benign0, if you don’t have those things, you don’t have Martial Law. What you have is a third-world shambles.
Or are you suggesting that this is just another standard Filipino exercise – all show and no substance – and that’s just a-OK? As long as we PRETEND to be doing something it doesn’t matter if we actually achieve the desired result?
Do you really think it’s morally right to send young men off to fight KNOWING FOR SURE they’re going to get killed?
As for the people who fear military abuse – well, as I said, I can’t answer for them. However, it’s really quite beside the point. Opposing futile actions for the wrong reasons is such a terrible sin. Pouring gasoline on the fire because Pinoys are too proud to admit they’re out of their depth … that IS a sin, and the Pope would probably give you chapter and verse explaining why.
@marius
If Ph military wasn’t functioning, terrorists groups including the MILF, MNLF and NPAs would be wreaking havoc all over the country by now. That’s not the case. So for you to claim that PH military is not “functioning” is exaggerated. They are not as equipped and highly trained as the US military forces for instance, but they can still kick some Maute asses.
You’re the one who needs to be serious if you think going into battle will not result in any casualty from the government’s side.
There is a threat of terrorist groups capturing cities in Mindanao at the moment, but you seem to be in denial. If Martial Law needs to be declared to contain it, I’m all for it. In fact, because our military is ill-equipped, the more the situation has to be contained.
We salute the gallantry of all Filipino soldiers, in their fight against the Maute/ISIS rebels. Your sacrifice for the country, will always be remembered. You will always be honored and not forgotten by future generations of Filipinos.
We are all indebted to you…
>> Opposing futile actions for the wrong reasons is such a terrible sin.
Sorry, typo. Should read NOT such a terrible sin. Why don’t we have an edit button?
Hyden: Filipinos have been ‘sacrificing’ for 70 years and look where it’s got them. Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the army supposed to be sacrificing the terrorists?
We salute all Filipino soldiers, for their sacrifices !
Marius,
I am totally behind you. Havent we seen this before? With the so-called “elite” corps where 44 were killed instantly (SAF44). I really get the notion that I dont feel protected under the watch of any PH soldier.
Lets give them some really professional training and some real guns, not toys.
So, now 13 are killed bec they didnt get the support from the home crowd? Doesnt look very professional to me at all.
The article didn’t say the soldiers were killed because “they didn’t get support from the home crowd”. You need to read it again.
Robert: the SAF44 tragedy was proof that the military are just not up to the job of tackling the situation. In any functioning country, we’d have this:
AFP chiefs of staff: “we need to make sure this never, ever happens again. We’re going to make sure our solders have all the right tools for the job, and we’re going to make sure our colleagues didn’t die for nothing”.
In the Philippines, what we actually have is this:
General public: “It’s all Pnoy’s fault! No, it’s America’s fault! No, it’s Duterte’s fault! No, it’s the Muslims!”
The first recourse of the Filipino is to find someone else to blame for their own bad judgement, so that they can carry on doing the same thing next week without having to take responsibility for the (completely predictable) outcome.
Excuse me, but you need to be informed, marius. The deaths of the 44 members of the Special Action Forces of the Philippine National Police wasn’t the military’s fault. The military was reportedly asked by BS Aquino to stand down (allegedly to appease the MILF) instead of help the SAFs who were under attack by terrorist groups during the Mamasapano operation in 2016. The military was not even involved nor informed about the operation until it was too late. This was an operation conducted by the police force, not the military. This operation was conducted in secret under the command of disgraced former Chief of Police Purisima and Napenas. You should have realised this the minute you wrote SAF.
the truth is: martial law is the enemy of communism and the islamic terrorism in Mindanao….period. and who are the victims of martial law during marcos times? isn’t it all of them communist? check the list it’s all communist.
@Ilda: you’re splitting hairs. The SAF are a quasi-military branch of the police, similar to the Italian Carabinieri. They’re heavily armed and trained to the same level of combat readiness as the actual military (their training is probably superior to the military proper). As far as I know, many of them are selected from the armed forces. In other countries, their equivalent IS a unit of the Armed Forces.
The fact remains that the Mamasapano operation completely underestimated the nature of the enemy and exposed the SAF44 to unacceptable risk with no apparent contingency for backup firepower. You can blame whoever you like for that. It doesn’t make any difference. Some of the country’s best soldiers (not “policemen”) are dead because their commanders made the wrong decisions. It’s as simple as that.
Your entire argument about public fears displays the same cognitive biases that has brought this country to its knees. Notably:
1) Anticipating bad outcomes will cause bad outcomes.
– Back in the real world, considering “what’s the worst that can happen?” is a critical part of any plan, especially military plans. Assuming the military will engage in atrocities if given free rein to do so is not paranoia. It’s just forward planning. Consider the possibility, and make arrangements to ensure it doesn’t happen.
2) Holding someone to account is equivalent to disrespect.
– This is possibly the single most dangerous thing that Filipinos believe. Holding someone to a high standard of behavior IS the core of respect. You are assuming a priori that they are CAPABLE of such high standards. Setting the bar as low as possible, because you suspect deep down that Filipinos are capable of nothing more, is the core of disrespect. It’s also the most common reasons Filipinos fail again and again and again – because they expect nothing else of themselves.
Benign0 makes the same mistakes in his articles.
As for your assertion that the MILF etc aren’t wreaking havoc and therefore the army are “functional”: I spent some time in Mindanao, a few years ago. The locals accepted terrorists as part of the scenery. They would wave casually into the jungle and say, “oh, by the way, don’t go out there, there’s a bunch of PLA (or whoever) out there”. It was common knowledge where these groups were operating, and they did so COMPLETELY UNMOLESTED by the Police, or the Army. You might also remember Duterte’s response to complaints about their protection rackets: “just pay them”. So no, it isn’t the Army keeping them under control.
It’s a lot simpler than that: the Philippines is a big place, and there just aren’t many of them.
Sigh…instead of admitting you made a mistake in blaming the military for the Mamasapano fiasco, you simply say “I’m splitting hairs”. Tsk, tsk…
While members of the SAF undergo several special military combat-related training, they are not considered part of the military. The operative word is “several”, not all military combat training.
Anyway, I was about to respond to your long post until I realised that you changed the subject of the article. Way to go! The article is pointing out the lack of respect and support from LP and anti-Martial Law activists. Your justification in not supporting ML is very different from theirs.
What is your point anyway? That the Philippine government should just stand back and allow the terrorists to take over Marawi and the rest of Mindanao because you think the military is not “functioning” or not prepared to fight them? That’s just crazy.
Ready or not, there is a threat that an ISIS affiliated terrorist group could wreak havoc in the region or possibly the whole country. When before the usual suspects who keep the Ph authorities busy – MNLF, MILF, Abu Sayyaf, etc – are just bandits and even some tried their luck to demand a separate state from Ph, ISIS is a different ball game. Their ideology or shall we say, agenda is different. Obviously, the government cannot ignore their presence.
SUPPORT Your PRESIDENT DUTERTE, there is NONE BETTER, LOVE To have him as a LEADER in AUSTRALIA
@Ilda: My point is the same one I made to Benign0: doing something is not the same thing as doing something useful. Sending in the army is a last resort. It’s a typical Filipino “oooh the sky is falling the sky is falling” crisis intervention. it’s happening because the country hasn’t even pretended to maintain law and order since the Americans left in the 60s.
In other words, there wouldn’t BE a crisis if Filipinos hadn’t let their country fall to pieces for 50 years. Now, admittedly, we are where we are, and it has to be dealt with. But part of the solution should be addressing underlying causes. Not next year, when the entire country is under Martial Law and everyone has forgotten what the original problem was. Now, before it’s too late.
Does it not strike you as odd that it turned out this way? That 100 million Filipinos either tolerate or encourage the ‘terrorists’ in their midst? Here’s how I think the dynamics played out, and will play out over the next month or two:
The Philippines State apparatus is designed to keep people poor and miserable. That is its purpose. Under those circumstances, nobody has much allegiance to the State. So they make their own arrangements. Little “kingdoms” spring up, where the guy with the biggest stick makes the rules. Those terrorists are not outsiders. They’re somebody’s son or brother or father. They get food packages from the family. They are a part of the community.
There would have been people who objected, of course. Good people. People who aren’t criminals. But you know how that works, don’t you? They might have gone to complain to the authorities. But the authorities are not in control. They never have been. They aren’t today. In any Barangay, there is someone who is officially in charge, and someone who is ACTUALLY in charge. So the complainer would have been silenced, either with a quiet word of advice, or more direct means.
Now, you’re sending in the army to kill sons and brothers and fathers. How do you think THAT’s going to turn out? Is it going to win hearts and minds? I suspect not. The people aren’t exactly worried about “atrocities”. They’re worried that actual criminals – their blood relations – are going to die.
So what do we do? You need to start from the ground up. There is no quick fix. You have to do all of the things that have been neglected for 50 years – like, for example, employing, training and monitoring a proper police force. That could have been done BEFORE sending in the army, so that the guys with guns would have allies on the ground to help them with intelligence, process captives. And before you did THAT, you’d have to achieve something almost impossible: convincing Filipinos to work together in a team, towards a common goal, without sabotaging each other, passing the blame, or trying to cover themselves with undeserved glory.
You will answer: oh, but how could we possibly do that? Do you realise how much time that will take? It’s unrealistic. Well, the sooner you start, the sooner you’ll be ready. Because right now, the terrorists are more ready than you are.
Oh dear…your long-winded response is beside the point of the article. We have numerous articles addressing the root cause of the problem you have pointed out. However, the Philippine government has an immediate problem it has to deal with right now – one out of a dozen or more pressing problems previous administrators ignored for decades. Yes, you’re trying to address long-term solutions to the problems Filipinos are facing today. But Ph authorities can’t ignore the Maute terrorist group right now just because the previous administrators and the people in general were apathetic to them.
Again, the article is pointing out the lack of respect and support for the military from some sectors at a time when they need it the most. We here at GRP are the first to point out Philippine society’s shortfalls, but there comes a time when we have to give the military some kudos too for their efforts (no matter how futile you think they are) in keeping the country safe.
Considering that we usually worry about Islamic Terrorists reaching our area and either do what they do best or peddle their bullshit to the kids ther and Communist Rebels robbing our farmers and committing highway robberies to fund their “revolution”, we already expected this to happen. The Yellowtards and the Leftist shills can screech like a bunch of autists for all I care because what’s the point of freedom when there’s no order left. These assholes never tried living in Mindanao or lived too long in Manila that they forgot how bad things are in that island. If having peace there and preventing our home from becoming an ISIS stronghold meant Mindanao undergoing Martial Law, then we’d welcome it with open arms.
These Yellowtards and their merry band of hanger-ons make me sick and moreso whenever these people keep sending me their empty platitudes about us from Mindanao being ruled with an iron fist and our freedom being taken away from us. Screw these people, we just want peace and order. Freedom is useless when we are under the boots of those Islamists or Communist scums.
>> Again, the article is pointing out the lack of respect and support for the military from some sectors at a time when they need it the most.
Yes, I get that. And I already answered you:
1) They are not facing “disrespect”. Only in the Philippines is expecting someone to do their job with 100% professional integrity called “disrespect”.
2) Whether the public supports them or not depends a great deal on whether they are successful. If they are doomed to fail from the start, they can’t realistically expect much support.
My long-winded detour was an attempt to elaborate on that, since it’s clearly a “does not compute” argument for most Filipinos.
Anyway, at least you acknowledged what I suspected: nobody actually cares if the military action succeeds, or if it ends in an escalation of violence, because the only point is simply to be seen to be doing something.
Don’t get me wrong: I would be ecstatic if this actually worked. However, out of all the historical instances of failed states using Martial Law to (ostensibly) solve immediate problems, I can only think of one that was successful (Rwanda), and they had an uncommonly capable commander. 95% of the time it ends in disaster. The pessimists you deride have some pretty hard statistics on their side, and your argument – oh, it’s going to be different this time! – amounts to Ilda being clairvoyant.
Once again, you are speaking on behalf of the members of LP and anti-martial activists who aren’t even saying the same lines as you are. They are against Martial Law because of what happened during Martial Law years. You’re talking about a different issue. You’re arrogance is showing here.
The military’s lack of what you call proper training and equipment is not the soldiers’ fault. It is the result of a lot of things like corruption and apathy. Yes, they are all part of why Ph is still backwards, but I am pointing out something different to what you are saying. God, you seem slow.
Get this once and for all: The article is talking about members of LP and anti-martial law activists who are against Duterte’s Martial Law because they fear military abuse like in the past. Sigh…
Trillanes and the people who act like him taking a blind eye or not. There was no such opposition with the former president Benigno Aquino. I can’t help but connect the dots, when Marcos was ousted, the anti-Marcos became in power. Hunger, corruption grew and the media and books all blamed Marcos for “stealing” that’s why their country is “poor”. The mass had no idea those who ousted Marcos were actually the thieves of this country. Propaganda left and right have made the average Filipino think Martial Law equates to the wrongdoing of Marcos, they were brainwashed, they don’t even know what Martial Law means. – exactly what these people who want to sell the resources of the Philippines to outsiders, an act of treason. God save our motherland from them!
>> The article is talking about members of LP and anti-martial law activists who are against Duterte’s Martial Law because they fear military abuse like in the past.
Yeah, I know. Clearly you didn’t read any of my response. I’ll try again in sentences short enough for the Twitter generation:
1) You have zero evidence for your belief that THIS time it’s all going to work out wonderfully … except, apparently, you believe you can predict the future. For the rest of us, the best reference we have is the PAST and the PRESENT. And as we all know:
– Filipino society has not changed at all since 1980;
– The military is only slightly more competent than it was in 1980;
– You still have several of the same people/families in power from 1980;
– Being a criminal is still the most logical career option for those with the stomach for it;
– The State apparatus is as corrupt and rapacious as it ever was;
Do I need to continue? Would you like to point out ONE SINGLE FEATURE of the modern Philippines that differs from 1980? Apart from the fact that we have a different President?
Bottom line is, you’ve written an article about a carefully constructed strawman, while dismissing as irrelevant all the VALID reasons why people might actually be upset about Martial Law. I’m not going to call you slow. You’re clearly intelligent. But you think like every other Filipino: in straight lines, inside the box. in a direction you’ve already decided is correct. I blame your education system for that.
Which part of the article says “I believe this time, it’s all going to work out wonderfully”? You won’t find it because I never said anything of the sort. I did not even predict a “wonderful” outcome.
The point is, for the nth time, the military is not getting respect and support from the Liberal Party and anti-Martial Law activists when the soldiers need it the most. The title is already foolproof. It’s baffling why you keep diverting the issue to something else. Perhaps it’s because you are trying to distract people from the fact that you made a mistake in blaming the military for the Mamasapano fiasco. It’s okay, we all make mistakes. The important thing is to admit to your error as soon as possible so you can move on.
You’re reading too much into a very specific topic. And by the way, I actually said in the article that the lack of trust in the military says a lot about the lack of trust in Ph society in general. I’ll paste that part for your benefit:
Hay naku, makitid talaga mga kokote ng mga yan at ang isa diyang dayuhang nagmamarunong na di naman nakatira/tumira sa Pilipinas.
Nandito lang ang mga yan para mang-uto, manlinlang, manira, magpropaganda, magsabotahe, atbp. gawain para kumontra sa gobyerno lalo pa kung tinitira ang partidong nagpabagsak sa Pilipinas sa 3 dekadang paghawak nito at ginagawa ang lahat para pabagsakin ang gobyerno para hindi mahalungkat kalokohang pinaggagawa nila sa bansa.
Di niyo na maloloko mga Pilipino ngayon maliban nalang sa mga Elitista, Bayaran, Oligarchs, o kamag-anakan ng mga salot sa bansa.
I’m trying to get a handle on the Rules Of Debate according to Ilda. So far I’ve got:
1) Respondents may not point out, or ask for clarification about, any corollary of the author’ s position. Such corollaries will be denied without logical refutation.
2) Any facts that contradict the author’s position will be considered outside the scope of the topic.
3) Any logical arguments which shed doubt on the author’s rationale will be regarded as arrogance.
4) Pointing out logical fallacies in the author’s reasoning (eg., an argument advanced for the wrong reasons is necessarily invalid) is off-topic.
Did I miss anything? It’s worth getting this straight, so that next time we can all just post “That’s right! Damn Liberals and anti-Martial Law activists! It’s all their fault!”. Then we can all sit around patting each other on the back, confident that the country’s problems will be solved if only it were free of Liberals and anti-Martial Law activists. Oh, and terrorists, but of course the AFP will sort that out real soon, as long as we don’t crush their morale. If they fail, it’ll be because someone crushed their morale. We’re looking at YOU, Liberals!
The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue. The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. Soldiers, when committed to a task, can’t compromise. It’s unrelenting devotion to the standards of duty and courage, absolute loyalty to others, not letting the task go until it’s been done.
To be a soldier one needs that special gene, that extra something, that enables a person to jump into one on one combat, something, after all, that is unimaginable to most of us, as we are simply not brave enough. With courage and character, soldiers continue to put themselves on the line to defend our freedom, and so many have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
A professional soldier understands that war means killing people, war means maiming people, war means families left without fathers and mothers. Soldiers are citizens of death’s grey land, drawing no dividend from time’s tomorrows.
A handful of soldiers is always better than a mouthful of arguments. You cannot expect soldiers to change people’s minds. That has to be done in other ways. All soldiers who serve their country and put their lives at risk need to know that if something happens to them, their families will be well taken care of. That’s the bond we have with our military men and women and their families.
Soldiers are men…most apt for all manner of services and best able to support and endure the infinite toils and continual hazards of war.
d_forsaken,
“A professional soldier”
Does the Philippines also recruit amateur soldiers?
I could and can write an exact comment when it concerns engineers, accountants, nurses, teachers. Being a soldier is just a job. Do it excellently, like any other job on this planet. No need to write a piece of shit proza about being a soldier.
In the end not everyone can be a soldier. An engineer or an accountant may have a beam or cash on their shoulders but not a whole country.
Comment coming from an architect. I won’t risk my life and valor for ungrateful people like you. If I’d be soldier, I wish I had the liberty to chose WHAT KIND of people to protect.
this coming 119th Philippines Independence Day is in honor of the late president Marcos. He is the one who gave us independence from the tyranny of the yellow dynasty’s greed and betrayals which droved us pilipinos to poverty and miserable living. yeah, it’s us who’s worth living for.
i want to see how the yellowtards, the communist, and the islamic terrorist respond to president Duterte’s Independence Day message to the Pilipinos.
[Link to above comment]
@marius Yeah, you did miss something: it’s called the whole point. That’s because you quibble at every little detail and, as a result, lose sight of the bigger context.
For example, Ilda already pointed out the key pillar of your entire argument, your assetion that we “have zero evidence for your belief that THIS time it’s all going to work out wonderfully” is vacuous. No such assertion was made. And yet you built an entire argument on top of that ululation.
And, so here you are now going off on a rampage stomping your feet about the perceived unfair treatment you are getting here. Lol!
>> That’s because you quibble at every little detail and, as a result, lose sight of the bigger context.
Funnily enough, that was exactly the accusation I leveled at Ilda. While she quibbles over whether the SAF are a military force or a police force, the whole picture is bigger than whether the “Liberals” are wrong or right. Martial Law is the Philippine’s last opportunity to do the right thing. If this fails then the country is going to descend into a decade of civil war and misery. Political allegiances have lost all relevance.
>> your assetion that we “have zero evidence for your belief that THIS time it’s all going to work out wonderfully” is vacuous
Hence my point about logical corollaries. IF you wish to assert that Martial Law is worth trying, THEN there are only two possible implications:
1) You believe that Martial Law (that is, a military intervention with no civilian support of any kind) is going to WORK.
2) You don’t care if it works or not. You just think we ought to kill somebody.
So although Ilda didn’t explicitly STATE that it’s all going to work out wonderfully, it is IMPLIED by the argument. Unless, of course, (2) is true? Which is it?
Marius,
I think that Duterte made at least one big mistake. He probably thought that “what I did in Davao, i can also do in the entire Philippines”. But he underestimated the forces that plays in the country (in any and every country). He probably also thought that by attacking the drugs scene, he would get a lot of praisal.
Thirdly, by becoming president by only getting 39% all the votes is also not in/to his benefit. The mandate is simply too small.
Give me one country that is 100% united behind one president? America? No. Great Britain? No. France? No.
So Duterte is busy to shoot himself in the foot constantly.
By your logic, there is no basis for asserting Martial Law will not work either, much more result in the country “descend[ing] into a decade of civil war and misery”. You seem to be trapped in a binary approach to evaluating the arguments; i.e., whether one path will (1) work or (2) not work; as if you are testing whether a circuit config will result in a light bulb going on or remaining off. That’s called oversimplification. Of course that approach is really all you have when you are quibbling within the frame of a single article and not the vast body of work that is GRP.
>> That’s called oversimplification.
No, benign0, it’s called working through the possible outcomes, discussing strategy, or planning, something which Filipinos in general seem extraordinarily bad at.
>> no basis for asserting Martial Law will not work either.
Nonsense. We’re not flipping a coin here. Or do you perhaps believe that IS what we have here – a pure “hey, let’s try this and see what happens!” scenario?
There is EVERY reason to suppose it won’t work, as I already explained at length to Ilda (and which she dismissed as ‘irrelevant’ or ‘off topic’. Historical reasons; lessons from other countries; cultural reasons; and just extremely obvious issues (for example, being bombed makes people angry). The people who are scared and worried are perfectly JUSTIFIED in their views based on PAST PERFORMANCE.
I tried to present some facts and a train of reasoning. Neither you or Ilda have done that. You’re just taking pot-shots at ‘crybabies’ and ‘Liberals’.
Robert: I completely agree. The problem IS a lack of big-picture thinking. I remarked before the elections that Duterte wouldn’t be able to fix the country because he’s a Filipino, bringing only Filipino solutions to the table. He’s grown up in a dysfunctional country and doesn’t even know what a proper country looks like. So here he is, blasting away at the bad guys (violence usually being high on the list of Filipino “solutions” to problems) without considering all of the OTHER things that need to be fixed the long, hard way.
I’m not disagreeing that there are a lot of bad guys out there that need taking out. I’m just pointing out that those bad guys were produced by what the Philippines IS. Without making some attempt to change that, new bad guys will simply flood in to fill the spaces vacated by the original bad guys.
Marius,
Every problem needs to be looked at from every angle. And that is something Duterte is not doing. He only approaches it from one angle. Kill those drug users. And then he thinks the problem will go away and is solved. Maybe that worked in Davao where he had no opposition bec he probably behaved like a tyran and dictator.
Governing an entire country is a diffeerent ball game.
@Benign0: just to be absolutely clear here: Martial Law DOES have only two possible outcomes:
1) it can make things objectively worse, or
2) it can make things objectively better.
I would have thought this is incredibly obvious, but perhaps you think there is a third possibility?
Nope. That’s your binary thinking at work again. There is a continuum of outcomes in between the two with the mid-point being one of having no effect on the collective wellbeing of Filipinos. See, it depends on how big a contributor Martial Law really is on this collective wellbeing. And that is what is being debated here — that, perhaps, all the shrieking we are seeing coming from all these hipsters is over something that really does not contribute significantly to the improvement — or degradation — of the collective wellbeing of Filipinos.
It is on this binary thinking approach that you build your entire argument. As such, the above clarification serves as response to that other lengthier comment of yours here.
>> with the mid-point being one of having no effect on the collective wellbeing of Filipinos.
Ah, I kind of expected that response.
And why would you want to indulge in something that has NO EFFECT? I mean, I see Filipinos doing this all the time. They seem to spend the majority of their lives doing things that have no effect. But again: why would you want to do it? It is perhaps FEAR OF SUCCESS that forces Filipinos into solutions that are quixotic at best, and self-destructive at worst?
Honestly, though, the idea of a civil war having “no effect” is utterly ridiculous. At the very least, military actions cost money, ie., money that could have been spent on having an actual positive effect.
No sane person calls out the army unless the expected effect is large and positive. Negative outcomes are obviously undesirable. Small positive outcomes resulting from drastic actions suggest that the action was not the best one.
Precisely the reason why I take issue with all the hooha over Martial Law these “activist” keep stirring.
Benign0: that response makes no sense at all. You just evaded the question.
At least Nacionalista will support Filipino Soldiers. We wanted was conservative nationalism OR national conservatism, not liberalism.
Did anyone of the commenters stop and actually thought who the military is protecting? It is the people of Marawi, from the terrorists group Maute. Yet here you are arguing about the military is not equip so we should not send them. Blah blah blah. By that logic, it’s ok for you to spill the blood of the people of Marawi who needs protection? And instead of arguing about the the military on how “not well trained” and “not so equip” they are, how about commending them for their bravery and dedication, that even with less equipment they are still willing to protect the people. Im not saying the military should be sacrifice, No, what Im saying is we should honor them, thank them, despite low equipment, they are still willing to fight and protect civilians, our freedom, against terrorists. And we must support increase funding for our military to be well trained and well equip. Filipinos like to argue, often forgetting the intentions and reasons why Martial Law was implemented, to protect the lives of civilians and our idea of democracy, our freedom. Please watch “Battle of Marawi” in Youtube uploaded by Army Special Forces to really really appreciate what these people have done for our country. Perhaps you’ll have better perspective, respect and appreciation to our military. Don’t just argue about it with. See them in action to understand and appreciate and give respect. I cannot hold back my tears watching the video.
Precisely! I blindly support Filipino soldiers because no matter what linguistic prowess I have, I can’t stop blood from spilling. Instead we use this voice to cheer on our fighters!
And while you’re are it watching the video (“Battle of Marawi” uploaded by Army Special Forces), please read the comment section and you might stop underestimating our military forces.