It is heartening to note that the Philippines’ esteemed men-in-robes have come out and reportedly stated that they consider themselves to be “at war”. I have long asserted that there is, in fact, such a war in the Philippines, between the forces of progress and the forces of primitivism. In the aftermath of the passing of House Bill 4244 also known as the ‘Reproductive Health Bill’ (RH Bill), the Roman Catholic Church of the Philippines have upped the ante — gone up to DEFCON 3…
“God has a good plan. He tolerated the [loss] of the battle to purify all of us. It’s sad, but God will finish the war for us. We did our best,” Batanes Bishop Camilo Gregorio said in an interview over Radio Veritas yesterday.
That’s just as well considering the next battle against the country’s Catholic jihadists is about to be waged in Congress according to House Speaker Feliciano Belmonte who is planning to support the passing of a divorce law in the Philippines.
After Malta legalized divorced last year, the Philippines has become the only country in the world — apart from the Vatican — without a divorce law.
Representatives Luzviminda Ilagan and Emerenciana de Jesus of the militant group Gabriela have a pending bill [HB 1799] seeking to amend the Family Code to include a divorce provision.
Belmonte said the measure remained at the committee level and was unlikely to be passed soon.
“Not this time, but it’s there at the back of our minds,” he said. “I just want the idea to be there — I want that to remain in the consciousness of congressmen so at some point, we can take it up again.”
For now, the only option available to Filipinos to escape imrisonment in unhappy marriages is the concept of “annulment.” My colleague Kate Natividad in her recent article called the process of annulment “a perverse philosophical farce far beyond [the average Filipino’s] financial means” and made the point that the recently-legislated obligation for either party in a marriage to deliver “satisfying sex” to their partner is pointless unless an opt-out is available in said marriage in the event this obligation is not met.
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Annulment is not such an option befitting the supposed spirit of “empowerment” of the RH BIll, something its proponents insisted was its whole point. Annulment is in practice utterly inaccessible to the resource-poor of the lot. Indeed, the irony of its origins as a workaround to keep the country’s Roman Catholic Taliban happy seems to escape the pointed heads of those who seek to block any efforts to enact a modern divorce law in the Philippines.
What’s up with the moronosim known as “annulment”, anyway? I wrote about just how moronic it is waaaaayyyy back so allow me to rehash my most reliable personal source of insight — my own work. For me it is quite simple, really:
“Annulment” is no more than a legal process for a state-sanctioned acceding to the tantrums of childish people crying over spilt milk.
The process of annulment aims to void the fact of the marriage so that both parties may, in principle, be free to re-marry without “moral” consequence. Contrast this with divorce which, conceptually, recognises the fact of the marriage and opens both parties to exercise options.
Annulment retroactively removes the fact of the marriage and, with said fact nullified, parties have none such to be accountable for. Divorce, on the other hand, moves on from the fact of the marriage to be terminated. It leaves the involved parties to opt for next steps under the presumption that said parties are personally accountable for any implications on their individual values (moral and ethical) associated with moving on.
In short, annulment seeks to unspill milk, while divorce seeks to mop it up.
Framed in this way, which of the two represents the thinking of a saner society? It’s no wonder that a people raised in an environment laced with moronic philosophical frameworks that include fantasies such as “annulment” are renowned for their disinclination to take control of their futures.
In her bestselling book The Art of Choosing, author Sheena Iyengar implies an interesting proposition — that some cultures habitually frame their world around pre-set paths also known as “destinies” in contrast with Western societies where the key guiding principle is choice.
In short, to the Western mind, every situation is framed by choice. The question is usually What happens next? — and therefore oriented to prospect. To the Filipino mind lorded over by idiocies such as “annulment”, the question seems to be more around What was it that pre-ordained us to this situation? — and therefore oriented to retrospect.
Prospect implies a desire to control, whereas retrospect inclines towards resignation.
Is Philippine society framed by choice, or by destiny?
One of the key insights offered by Iyengar’s book is that people — and even animals — who were raised in environments where evaluation of options is encouraged and a semblance of control over the outcomes of these choices is felt are more likely to fight for survival — and success — more ferociously. That picture provides a stark contrast to a culture such as ours — one famously propped up by the three pillars of loser mentalities: pwede-na-yan (that’ll do), bahala na (come what may), and impunity.
It’s high time that we start to re-think the very fundamental philosphies that underpin the things institutionalised in our society. It’s high time that we junk this insult on the already meagre intelligence of Da Pinoy known as “annulment” and implement a decent Divorce Law. Only in that way will the “empowerment” of Filipino women (as pitched to us by our “activists”) be truly complete.
benign0 is the Webmaster of GetRealPhilippines.com.
Might as well abolish religion, or the role of religion in marriage with this thing. With divorce in play, the proposed sanctity of marriage will most likely fly out the window.
OK, maybe not religion in the role of marrige…possibly just the vows part of the wedding ceremony, the one where both bride and groom say “I do”.
to have and to hold – I don’t really get this part
from this day forward – until “I” don’t like/love you anymore or found someone better
for better, for worse – read above
for richer – OK!
for poorer – No way!
in sickness – if you are heartless, divorce!
in health – No problem, maybe
until death do us part – will no longer apply to everyone
People (so long as marriage is concerned) will be like things one buys in a store, with a return and exchange policy, opposed to what presently exists which is a No Return or Exchange Policy.
We’re in a progressive country, with enough backing that divorce law is sure to pass.
annulment is the way for the hypocrital rich to bend the rules and remain ‘sanctimonious’
lets move forward with divorce – accessible and affordable for all.
too many trapped in abusive marriages.
maybe 1 year we may even get FoI, but i doubt in the next 3 years. just talk and talk.
If we are a nation with sense and logic shouldn’t our laws reflect our values and our principles? Flirting with the so called progressive ideas while losing our sense of morality, where is the sense in that? Can we really function as a society in the next thousand years if we view sex as mere pleasure without the sense to face its consequences and learning its true value? Can we be that unique Filipino society that values family in the next decade if we succumb to the idea that marriage is not for life? Why are we continually looking up to the failed societies of the Western world where disrespect for the elderly, psychotic killings, pornography and extreme sexual perversion are prevalent? Haven’t we read the news about mass shootings, pedophilia, and gruesome killings that are getting rampant in Western societies? The proponent of these progressive ideas under the guise of woman empowerment should be ashamed of themselves. You are termites eating the very foundation of our society. Shame! Shame! Shame!
Spoken like a True Christian Ric! God bless you! I have prayed long and hard for lost souls such as Benign0 who work against the teachings of Christ. Don’t lose hope! This is a high stakes spiritual war for the salvation of Filipino souls and we shall prevail because Jesus is on our side!
Wasn’t PNoy the ‘anointed One’? And, wasn’t he elected by ‘the people’ who are are said to be Deo Volente (i.e. “The Voice of God”)? So, whatever PNoy endorses, including the RH Bill, or later-on, divorce and same-sex marriage would have come from God, di ba? Akala ko ba PNoy’s heart is pure, honest, and incorruptible, bakit ngayon di niyo siya suportahan?
Such moral absolutism is perverse and dangerous. “Jesus is on our side!” Haven’t we all heard that before. I’m sure that’s the same thing the Christian crusaders were saying when they were busy looting, pillaging, raping and slaughtering non-Christians in Jerusalem. Problem is, that was hundreds of years ago, during medieval times.
Don’t credit yourself too much “Pastor”. I’m sure God doesn’t need charlatans like you to speak on his behalf, and I’m sure it has been admonished in the Bible itself to avoid charlatans who speak on behalf of God, but are really spiritually devoid.
It’s the 21st century, not the Middle Ages. Move on and evolve.
I can’t get over how delusional this statement is, “…failed societies of the Western world”.
As if Filipino society is so successful and so morally upright. Just taking a jeepney ride through the city everyday, and I see the overwhelming evidence of the “success of Filipino society” and the “moral ascendancy” of our culture.
Well ya know Pastor,who-ever it is on your side, I do not like the Catholic church being called ‘the taliban’.The Taliban is a muslim network of terrorsists that kill people violently.The argument can be made that the catholic church has done that too,BUT in this day and age that is certainly not true.The title of the argument is an insult to all catholics,plain and simple and if it were made about muslim-filipino’s there would be a shit-storm of complaints.
However the Philippines needs to get with the rest of the world and into the 21st century and let people get divorced.Blaming divorce for mass shootings and the decaying nature of todays society is completely. Both the title and the few comments prior to this one are insulting, idiotic points of view and will not improve the standing of this blog in the eyes of those who read it casually.
btw,Who was it that told you that you have a soul?Why do you believe that person? and if you do have a soul,how do you know that you do not have 20?
Did you get that in writing from JC? I think you are hallucinating, like Abraham did; he heard voices too.
Let’s just look at the crime rates of Western countries and compare that to the Philippines. No, let’s just look at our surroundings here in the Philippines and see the depth of sordidness, poverty, crime, destitution, pollution (complete with street children everywhere) and see the so-called “moral highground” you hypocrites and Christian charlatans profess that the Philippines has and the Western world hasn’t. I don’t see any children in Western societies begging in the streets. And the deaths from hunger and abuse of children – that happens everyday in the Philippines. Do school shootings happen all the time in the West? No. Morally and statistically, they’re still doing a lot better than the Philippines. Perhaps the shame should be heaped on you people.
Before you go on with your pontifications, know the realities first. A so-called devout Christian such yourself makes me laugh whenever you preach about this country’s (the Philippines) moral values when the facts itself speak otherwise. What effin planet are you people living on?
@Justin
According to you –
“I don’t see any children in Western societies begging in the streets.”
May I ask, where Western countries have you been?
Read this one –
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/young-philly-mother-tells-teens-to-get-a-job-when-they-ask-for-a-cigarette-and-they-kill-her/
Snippet –
“A young mother was senselessly murdered by three teens in western Pennsylvania after she told them to “get a job†and stop roaming the streets when they asked her fiancée for a cigarette, police say.”
What effin planet are you living on?
You’re still telling us the story of the Crusaders heh. Can’t move on without that story to bash Christians.
How about telling us stories where there was no Christianity? We may even pretend that Christianity did not happen and what it would be.
Right now, there is this politically correct crowd who wants to adapt these:
(They want to have the pre-Christian era).
– same-sex intercourse, bestiality, incest, and pederasty (sexual freedom and freedom to choose, heh…)
– infanticide for disabled (they decide who live and those who will not)
– mercy killing or euthanasia (the right to choose how and when to have a quality death with dignity)
– gender neutrality (it’s parent 1 or parent 2. No more mom or dad.)
ACLU, NAMBLA, SFC (Sex Freedom Coalition) are their advocates. Take note that they are from the Western countries.
They have nothing to do with Christianity and I can only suppose they’re ok with you if we’re talking about hypocrisy.
One thing I can tell you, we are not in a perfect world. It’s unfortunate that one would always see things that will only conform to the story he/she wants to have.
@TRISP,NAMBLA is not even close to an advocate of anything but pedophilia.It is actually a criminal enterprise that is so underground almost no one even knows who they are and to insinuate they have anything to do with anything but pedophilia is ludicrous.
The ACLU is an important legal group that works tirelessly for the protection of civil liberties in the U.S.A. and the work they do encompasses a broad spectrum of legalities and to suppose they advocate infanticide,wtf? No.While they may have some attorneys that personally believe in what you mention it is preposterous to say that they are advocates,for example,of infanticide+pre-christian era’s etc……WTF?
To think they do is to do EXACTLY what you accuse others of in the last sentence of your post(the part that states ‘one would always see things that will only conform to the story he/she wants to have’.(who you do think your kidding?besides yourself?). Oh,and EXACTLY who are these politically correct people you speak of and where did you hear these ‘crowd’s express that they want to see the ‘pre-Christian era’?
It is hilarious to see in print that the ‘unique’ Philippine culture (is that the same one that copies everything it see’s in the west?) will come crashing down in ruin if the legality of divorce becomes a law.Many of the people who are actually divorced already live apart from their spouses.They would be able to ‘legitimize’ their lives by being able to move-on and marry someone else if divorce became law. Not to mention the boom in the legal profession and all related fields that would be necessary to conduct the legalities involved in a divorce.In short it could and would stimulate the poverty-stricken economy and Men might even have to pay child-support for a change instead of running to another island and pretending they have no responsibilities!!!!! OR would that be anti-Christianity? You know, taking care of your responsibilities.’.
There are many positives involved if people take the time to look at those types of things instead of hiding behind the façade of ‘morality’ going down the drain if divorce were actually a reality in the Philippines.If the Philippines is really a place where the State and all Churches are separate it should not even be an issue for the people to consider in religious terms. Whereas if you do not believe in divorce,hey, don’t get divorced and leave the pontificating to the places where they belong , in the houses of worship… and not in the town square. Others religious beliefs,in a truly secular state,should not affect other peoples lives. CBCP or no.
@Fredy
Your comment:
“@TRISP,NAMBLA is not even close to an advocate of anything but pedophilia.It is actually a criminal enterprise that is so underground almost no one even knows who they are and to insinuate they have anything to do with anything but pedophilia is ludicrous”
According to Wiki –
“The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is a pedophile and pederasty advocacy organization in the United States that works to abolish age of consent laws criminalizing adult sexual involvement with minors,[2][3] and for the release of all men who have been jailed for sexual contacts with minors that did not involve coercion.[2][4] ”
“NAMBLA has been defended by poet and rights advocate Allen Ginsberg[6][7] and gay rights activist Harry Hay.[8]
Can you cite any source that they’re a criminal enterprise. Otherwise STFU.
For the ACLU, how about this one –
American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an “unconstitutional†lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group’s members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy.
The $200 million civil lawsuit, which charges the North American Man-Boy Love Association with wrongful death, was originally filed in Massachusetts Federal District Court on May 16.
As reported in WorldNetDaily, Salvatore Sicari and Charles Jaynes picked up fifth-grader Jeffrey Curley and took the boy to the Boston Public Library where Jaynes accessed NAMBLA’s website. Later, the men attempted to sexually assault Curley, but the boy fought back. Attempting to restrain him, Jaynes gagged the 10-year-old with a gasoline-soaked rag, eventually killing him. The men put Jeffrey’s body in a tub with concrete and threw it in a river.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2000/12/4648/#D1egT5371x7RL4GH.99
You want some more?
As for the rest of your comments, They’re all BS. Go and get something that is hard-hitting.
WOW,Your a regular Wikipedia warrior aren’t you? It does not mean that Nambla has any clout/opinions that matter or is not a criminal enterprise. Dragging a bunch of pedophiles into an argument about teaching people to wear condoms,and then backing it up w/Wikipedia factoids is ludicrous….and I am not impressed.
We can butt heads on a weightier issue some other time,if you want,but this is just not worth my time.I’ve better things to do,seriously.
SoFreddy, what do you mean.
I always go for facts and you what can you show us –
“….and I am not impressed.
We can butt heads on a weightier issue some other time,if you want,but this is just not worth my time.I’ve better things to do,seriously.”
Then STFU if you can’t support your claims.
Puro ka daldal…
@Trosp
First off, I wasn’t bashing Christianity if that is the impression you got. I haven’t made any specific statements that is unequivocally slandering Christians. I was referring to Christian charlatans, meaning those who feel so assured of their own moral superiority yet whose claims to this “superiority” are juxtaposed on conflicting realities. Like a snake-oil kind of Christianity.
I’m a Christian, why would I bash my own religion? But I suppose that’s what you’re good at isn’t it? Argumentative for argument’s sake, relying on the most spurious logical connections and questionable sources as the basis of your arguments. A pedant’s past time.
Second, regarding that young mother. Yes it’s horrible, but how in the hell does that even refute my argument?
I still stand by my claim that what the West has achieved is still better than what the Philippines ever did, especially when you look at it on a larger statistical picture: infant mortality, maternal deaths, population below the poverty line, crime rates, theft, corruption, rates of child abuse, gun violence… the list goes on and on.
Lack of law enforcement and the rule of law which is typical of the Philippine setting does not make for a more moral society. I’m not claiming that people in the West are intrinsically or racially more moral than Filipinos. What I’m saying is as a larger group, as a community, as a culture, they are doing far better than us right now than what any dubious claims to morality Filipinos like to spout off.
I don’t think being moral necessarily equates to how much Bible verses you can quote or how loud or how often you shout “Jesus!” everyday.
Until the Philippines has achieved the same level of development as the West, both socially, economically, politically and culturally then will Filipinos have the legitimacy to argue about morality with the West.
Until then, I suggest fixing one’s own backyard first before pointing at the neighbor’s trash.
@Justin
According to you –
“Such moral absolutism is perverse and dangerous.”
I can’t speak for the whole Christian’s teachings but for Roman Catholics, faith and belief are based on moral absolutism dogma.
I’ll use Wiki for my definition of moral absolutism (the opposite of relative absolutism.) And you can refute it by any definition you have.
“The philosophized notion that right and wrong are not absolute values, but are personalized according to the individual and his or her circumstances or cultural orientation. It can be used positively to effect change in the law (e.g., promoting tolerance for other customs or lifestyles) or negatively as a means to attempt justification for wrongdoing or lawbreaking. The opposite of moral relativism is moral absolutism, which espouses a fundamental, Natural Law of constant values and rules, and which judges all persons equally, irrespective of individual circumstances or cultural differences.â€
Another of according to you –
“I don’t see any children in Western societies begging in the streets.â€
And my rejoinder –
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/young-philly-mother-tells-teens-to-get-a-job-when-they-ask-for-a-cigarette-and-they-kill-her/
Snippet –
“A young mother was senselessly murdered by three teens in western Pennsylvania after she told them to “get a job†and stop roaming the streets when they asked her fiancée for a cigarette, police say.â€
Now, you’re making this claim –
“Second, regarding that young mother. Yes it’s horrible, but how in the hell does that even refute my argument?”
Because you made this claim –
“I don’t see any children in Western societies begging in the streets.â€
And you have the chutzpah to make this other claim –
“But I suppose that’s what you’re good at isn’t it? Argumentative for argument’s sake, relying on the most spurious logical connections and questionable sources as the basis of your arguments. A pedant’s past time.”
Because my sources do not fit your narrative, therefore, they’re spurious and questionable?
How about your sources. Come to think of it. All your claims here are all your narratives. No source citation.
Oh yeah,OK,talk like a tough guy and tell people to stfu all day long butt-wipe,you are the one short on facts,do not live in the USA/Canada(where NAMBLA is HQ’d),can’t see what is right in front of his eyes,quotes wikipedia(HA!),AND have no clue what the ACLU is all about.Yeah you!Your the same guy that just could never admit that the Philippines suffers from over-crowding/population despite a 25% rise in the population in just 10 yrs.,has congested as shit cities etc,etc,etc!!! Yeah,yeah,yeah… go read wikipedia all day long and quote it as if its the bible,butt-head…I DO have better things to do than provide your nasty-ass with entertainment that your limited intellect/near sighted ass can not and does not understand!WHATTA @$$#o!#.
@Justin
So what is ACLU if you know what they are?
The way I see it, you only choose facts that supports your agenda.
You can’t even refute my claim!
“Can we be that unique Filipino society that values family in the next decade if we succumb to the idea that marriage is not for life? ”
Have you been living under a rock? If you look around, a lot of families in the Philippines don’t really value the family anymore. Filipino morals have gone out the window long time ago.
“The process of annulment aims to void the fact of the marriage so that both parties may, in principle, be free to re-marry without “moral†consequence. Contrast this with divorce which, conceptually, recognises the fact of the marriage and opens both parties to exercise options.” –> MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.
I personally recognize annulment if the couple did not consummate the marriage for one reason or another. Even a priest agreed with me that this is not marriage in the spiritual sense.
But, for instance, a 60-year-old couple who have full grown kids to say that their marriage did not exist in the first place…I find it ridiculous. Wouldn’t that, logically speaking, result in the illegitimacy of the children? Our laws still consider them legitimate but that makes our laws all the more contradictory. Wala ngang kasal eh, di dapat anak sa labas.
As for these people who keep spouting words such as “morality”…is it moral for a woman to stay with a husband that beats her up? Or should this woman just jump from her building unit, like Maria Teresa Carlton did, because she could not escape the mad man she married? The woman could have found a better love and the man could help her raise her kids. But no, for the sake of this so-called “morality”, better to let her die in the hands of a brute.
*correction: Maria Teresa Carlson
If she joined our Church, tragedy would have been avoided and she would have been saved. Hate to sound cruel but the Bible is pretty clear about suicide.
Google: Suicide Bible
God Bless.
Psator, if that really is what you do or are, you are assuming suicide is based only on personal choice, but what if the society/world pushed her to it such as being unable to divorce her current “legal” partner as her life/health is in peril.
The problem with your stance is you want to be a stickler word for word as to what was in the bible correct? Well the bible previously allowed for multiple wives did it not?
you may argue all you want against Old and New testament but that doesn’t separate the fact that it is.
Anyway, moving to more relevant points. Divorce is long overdue and that is a fact you cannot deny. However, the instance where divorce can be explored should be clear cut and defined. I kind of like the 2 instances wherein divorce can be explored based on what Sen. Miriam has said because it is a valid reason. Any other would be trivial.
There is no point in pretending a marriage did not exist because it was annuled. And to deny someone a chance for a happier life/marriage just because he chose the wrong person (basing on the 2 guidelines by Sen. Miriam for discussion’s sake for now) at least gives that person a legal course of action that acknowledges the marriage did happen but that it was a grave mistake. PERIOD!
There is no ifs ors or buts. It just is. If there is no grounds for divorce then divorce is not an option. PERIOD!
Isn’t that clear cut?
You would rather a person suffer or say she can seek salvation in your Church because of your belief she will find it there? What if she doesn’t? It is her fault that she didn’t try hard enough right?
Faith and religion are simply a matter of choice. We choose to believe in what we want to believe and they should not be forced onto anyone.
If you and your group do not want to explore divorce, then do not opt for it. Are you scared that your fellow church goers may also explore divorce and show that you are not of the same belief once it is legal to opt for divorce?
Also Pastor, if the issue is morality then I pose a simple question. Is it moral to deny another human being the chance of being happy (via starting over with divorce to find a more suitable partner) just because your belief (based solely on your interpretation of the teachings of your religion) says otherwise? Even if that means she loses not only happiness, but also health and/or life?
Like I said in my other post to you, should your church or group denounce the choice of divorce, then don’t choose it should it become legal. Good on you and your group. Divorce will not be forced upon you should it become legal so the choice is still up to the person whether to explore it or not.
Now should your congregation end up exploring to choose the route of divorce later on is an entirely difference matter outside of the issue of legality of divorce and should not be a consideration in this discussion.
To say that your church could have saved her would be insensitive actually. You weren’t in her shoes nor did you experience what she experienced. I wasn’t as well but you don’t hear me saying she was “weak minded” to choose suicide as that is what you are basically saying.
That’s like saying to a sick person. “No don’t go look for a doctor. Pray and you will be healed”
Or better yet “Hey friend, you don’t need an engineer to make sure your house stands. How hard can it be to stack bricks to make walls right?”
There are instances wherein a professional is needed and not just words of encouragement. Sure it helps, but it isn’t always the case. In cases wherein the marriage is falling apart, the professional needed is a lawyer already.
Hope that clears up the air a bit.
What should she do then to her husband, forgive him 77 times? Does staying in marriage out of obligation and not on love for the spouse and children which has been since been lost due to domestic violence, count as a point towards eternal life?
And you can’t expect everyone to be devoted in a religious community. There are a lot of reasons not to, and that is up to that person with his/her religious affiliation.
Pastor Ernie:
Just because the bible says so and it’s already the word of god? One thing is sure though, man created god in his image and likeness bundled with tantrums, jealousy, genocidal tendencies, incest and to commit murder. If you really understand what you’ve been reading in the bible and not as you say “nitpicking” god has committed gruesome crimes that would make Hitler and Ampatuan saints.Come to think of it, it’s better to be damned thru eternity than be in a very boring place called heaven but such thing will never happen because there is absolutely no afterlife. as one anonymous philosopher said,
“Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.â€
Wake up from your stupor Mr. Pastor and start helping your fellowmen by not teaching myths. And please get rid of that invisible support of yours who grabs all the credit.
To devout Catholics, the only real escape is death as there are no real solutions in life that truly matter to begin with. Catholicism after all is a belief system that promises everything in death and nothing in life. Everything about life is given value only from the perspective of where you might go after death. And this explains why the Catholic Church is so oblivious to the plight of people in abusive or dysfunctional marriages — because it believes that we are all headed for death anyway and that everything will be resolved after that.
So why worry? God will sort it all out when we meet him. This is how Catholic teachers think and how they’d want their followers to think. What’s the point in implementing solutions to life’s issues when those who irredeemably suffer in life will be rewarded after death. To Catholics there is no point to earthly concerns.
What is a 77.5 year life (average) compared to an eternity in Heaven or in Hell? This IS the more important question folks. Please think carefully on what Benign0 is telling you.
God loved us so much that he sacrificed his only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to save us from our sins. We have “free will” to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior or suffer eternal damnation in the fires of hell. God LOVES you, that is why he gave us the free will choose. I know, it sounds batshit crazy sometimes but this is what the Bible says. You can’t cherry pick parts of the Bible you like and ignore the rest. Take it or leave it.
God bless.
Precisely my point then. To Catholics, life is essentially worthless.
You miss the point brother. Life is nothing compared to the afterlife.
Someone once asked me: “Pastor, if God gave us free will to choose from paradise and eternal damnation, then that really isn’t much of a choice now is it?”
And to that I replied: “Bingo! God LOVES us so much that he made the choice so easy. Its like having a final exam and the only question was 1 + 1 = ?”
And he asked a follow-up question: “Pastor, if God LOVES us so much why would he create a place of eternal damnation where people burn and suffer forever?”
And to that I replied: “Bingo again! You see how much God loves you? He made the choice so fucking obvious that who in their right mind would want that when they could easily accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and enter the kingdom of heaven.”
God bless.
Nah. I’m jumping off from the precise point you make and reiterate when you say “Life is nothing compared to the afterlife.” It is absolutely consistent with what I say: To Catholics life is essentially worthless. In fact, for you, it’s basically nothing. I hit your point perfectly, “brother”.
I have no beef with your belief. I’m just intepreting said belief from my personal perspective and using it as a backdrop to explain why your priests behave and think the way they do.
The bible is not about god. It was written by heavily caffein overdosed smelly primitive goat herders who when not scratching their balls f=ck those unfortunate goats. The book is nothing but made up stories meant to scare. It,s monotheistic philosophy was believed to be lifted from Zarathustra who existed several centuries earlier.
“There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.
The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those others, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
The Bible is historically inaccurate [2], factually incorrect, inconsistent [2] and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.”
Alconce,
Blasphemy! How dare you question the authenticity of the Bible. This is the Word of God! How do I know this? THE BIBLE says so! How can you argue with that? I will pray for your soul which is dangerously sliding towards eternal damnation.
God Bless.
@Pastor
It is fact that the bible is written by man. God did not write it no matter how you want to twist facts.
Second, the bible as it is now isn’t what it was in the past.
There were books/chapters that were excluded. Words rewritten to serve their purpose during the time that it was changed.
To recognize the fact is not blasphemy. The deny it is stupid.
Want help?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZMNE7IE6bM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnO8kR1RZNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpHmpD62BW4
These are documentaries for at least an easy reference for you and you won’t need to read them. Just watch.
Again, it is not about disproving God or Jesus. It is just that the Bible (if it was the word of God in the beginning) is no longer that now as men have meddled with it too much.
Cheers Pastor and happy viewing over the holidays.
@alconce
“Just because the bible says so and it’s already the word of god?”
For Christians, it is, and for non-Christian, take it or leave it. What’s your problem?
“One thing is sure though, man created god in his image and likeness bundled with tantrums, jealousy, genocidal tendencies, incest and to commit murder. If you really understand what you’ve been reading in the bible and not as you say “nitpicking†god has committed gruesome crimes that would make Hitler and Ampatuan saints.”
You’re twisting the beliefs of Christians. What you’re spewing is your narrative based on the tale you want to believe. No more no less.
“Come to think of it, it’s better to be damned thru eternity than be in a very boring place called heaven but such thing will never happen because there is absolutely no afterlife.”
How one could be damned to eternity? Eternity is eternity. There should be a benchmark and yet for you heaven is a boring place. Have you been there?
I know the anonymous philosopher where you get your definition of Christianity. He was confronted by a Foxnews reporter regarding that definition. All he could mumble is “Hey, I’m just a comedian.”
@alconce
Your claim:
““There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god.”
The Bible is all about God. Let’s do it your way, show us any claim in the bible that is false about God.
What did Carl Sagan take on this – “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
“The Bible is historically inaccurate [2], factually incorrect, inconsistent [2] and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.—
Care to give us examples.
To Catholics, life is essentially worthless. – benigno
—–
If that is true, why then does the Church keep on blocking and opposing birth control method proposals? Why is the Church always opposing steps to reduce population? Why is it against abortion? Why does it favor the oft repeated saying “go and multiply”?
I think you are saying, short of lying, the opposite about Catholics.
@Jonz
You would not know the answers to your questions because you’re an idiot.
Well, of course you don’t know you’re an idiot.
Because you’re just an idiot to know your idiocy…
Peace, Trosp, ang puso mo! Lol!
No need to get mad and have me banned again when you already know that benignoy will always come to your rescue.
You have a corrupted and perverted idea of Catholicism and Christianity in general. This is not even just about religion. It is about the sense of what is right and wrong which transcends religious divide. Christ and Roman Catholicism offers real life solutions and does not only escape to the fact that everything will be all right in the afterlife. Think about the children, the sanctity of marriage…Did you know that majority of mass shootings in the United States involves divorced parents? A child psychologically suffering because of a family torn apart. As a family man, I am NOT under illusion that marriage is smooth sailing. Far from it. But when we make divorce as an easy to access solution to unhappy marriage what do we get as a society? What values are we perpetuating? What are we telling to our young kids? That we can pretend to make a commitment because after all we can have an easy escape? Your progressive thinking denotes your crooked idea of responsibility and totally bereft of any idea how a moral society should behave.
“a child suffering because of a family torn apart”
that is exactly what happens because of the millions who have to work abroad as ofw’s in inhuame slavery with abuse as part of the job spec.
divorce is a last resort, not a pleasant experience, not what someone sets out to achieve, but with the right parameters a basic human right.
the hypocritic paedophiles in the church need to shut up and stay out of politics and social progress. so far they do nothing but make themselves rich.
I am insulted because I am an OFW and we never considered our family to be torn apart. We are a family and we continue to be family. I work abroad because there are no decent jobs in the country. Our politicians are more attuned in making social experimentations instead of ensuring that businesses will grow in the country and thus provide jobs. The politicians are more happy to spend taxpayers money on useless things. Thus instead of lowering taxes on businesses to make them grow, they tax more so they can fund things like the RH Bill. I work in a decent manner and I am a professional like millions of other Filipino OFW. We are not slaves, thank you very much. And shame on you.
@Ric
I don’t think you should take it as an insult but only that majority of cases, there is longing on the part of both parties, the OFW and the ones who stay behind.
As with long distance relationships, some work out even with the time apart but most don’t. If you are in a healthy long distance family relationship, then good on you. But that is more the exception rather than the rule.
It is not to belittle the bonds existing between the family members who are separated but it is acknowledgement that a closer more personal connection is better.
I agree, the lacking opportunities available locally are forcing breadwinners to explore opportunities abroad and we wish this was not the case.
For now, it appears some of our politicians though do not want to change that (like the view of Enrile) who wants to continue depending on OFW remittances to feed the local economy.
Just my two cents sir and I say what I say with respect and no offense to you and what you are doing to feed your family.
Cheers!
@ Bea
I believe in the sanctity of marriage because it meets all the requirements of the biblical teachings of the laws of God and the requirements of the laws of the state i.e. legitimate children, their general wellbeing as a result of parental marriage, inheritance etc.
There is a new idea called “Consorce” from the Latin word “cohabitation”. The idea is to stay in the same house, continue to work together financially for the good of the family, and, perhaps, even sleep in the same room without sexual contact expected by either individual based on the two parties agreeing on a “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell” policy regarding the individuals romantic lives.
It is not an “open marriage” because the two parties are agreeing to no longer have sexual relationship with one another while maintaining the platonic aspects of their relationship. While “divorce” is separation, “Consorce” offers the possibility of future reconciliation.
Was Maria Teresa Carlson married to a foreigner?
@LA702,
From a dutch/western point of view you are quite naieve. “Living together” (unmarried) or cohabitation always involves the physical part of a relationship for the simple fact that those 2 people love each other. And sex is part of love. Cohabitation can be seen as a “trial and error” phase to see if when 2 people are living under one roof 24/7 are really soul mates or not. Are they really the one and best soul mate for the other (and sex is part of that). Normally people that dont love each other will not participate in cohabitation or it must be to share the cost of housing. That is something you see a lot among students.
During the cohabitation phase no one can hide from his/her behavior and traits. So when I notice that my partner farts all the time, I can tell her to stop that or I am gone. Finding that out during marriage is pretty late, dont you think.
@ Robert Haighton
You have put to shame the 17 million people of The Netherlands with your stupid comment. Cohabitation is something I did when I was in my mid-twenties that produced two kids out of wedlock. Filipinos are too far advanced in this game so don’t talk to us about your Dutchness.
I was in your country six years ago as part of a group that toured Europe. I think Metro Manila is better than most European countries when it comes to entertainment.
LA702,
unmarried couples do have legitimate kids. Its obvious who the biological mother is, and the biological dad only has to confirm/recognize the kid as his when fileling the kid at City Hall. If the so called biological dad is not sure that its his he can always ask for a DNA test in any hospital.
What about adoption? That adopted kid will be legally ours even if it wasnt made by us.
So please start to think outside the box and widen/expand your horizon.
BTW:
Cohabitation will never happen in the parental house bec of lack of privacy. It may be in the same street as where the parents live but never in the same house/home.
Bea,
It is the popular belief that Maria Teresa Carlson was the victim of domestic abuse. It is also quite possible her husband was, like many Filipino males, especially men in power, prone to infidelity and that she was more a trophy wife than an actual partner in their marriage. No one bothered to do an in depth investigation of her domestic situation. Certainly not the media, who were very quick to demonize her husband based solely on Ms Carlson’s allegations in a 1996 Probe Team interview (Which she denied one week later on rival network ABS-CBN). Neither was the matter helped by Governor Fariñas’ outbursts against the women’s group KALAKASAN after they attacked him in the media.
The fact is, it is highly probable that Ms Carlson was a very troubled woman. Her erratic behavior suggests she was suffering from some form of mental illness, possibly paranoia. She was prone to outbursts when she was living at Platinum 2000, quite often causing a disturbance among her neighbors. Apparently this happened so frequently that it no longer surprised residents in her condo when security personnel were alerted.
There is also her behavior on the night of her suicide. She was running around the metropolis. One stop was at Malacañang Palace in an attempt to meet with then President Estrada. When that failed, she wrote a long rambling letter to her condo’s security personnel describing how there was someone after her, repeating the accusations against her husband, calling for the security guards at her condo to save her and offering a reward for their service. That was followed by several hours of shouting and running about in her unit. When she finally committed suicide, she tried to get her maid to jump with her. Needless to say, the maid was frightened out of her wits. In the end, no one in her building seems to have been surprised that Ms Carlson took her life. Saddened perhaps, but certainly not surprised. And her death probably traumatized the young couple who lived in the unit whose window opens out onto the spot where she landed.
In the aftermath of her death, there were plenty of accusations. Mainly directed at her husband, Governor Fariñas. Some anger from the media was leveled at Platinum 2000 for barring them from the scene of Ms Carlson’s suicide. (I say good job on the part of Platinum 2000!) Today people remember her for the Anti-Violence Against Women and Children Act signed by President Arroyo. But no one bothered to listen to Governor Fariñas’ story. No one remembers that Ms Carlson’s children admitted that there were times when they were afraid of their mother when she had her outbursts.
You talk about abuse. The real abuse was the fact that news organizations like ABS-CBN sensationalized Ms Carlson’s suicide. For years following the tragedy they would drag out the gory details each October as part of a “Halloween special.” That kind of exploitation is disgusting. It is made all the more tragic because it masked what might be mental illness on Ms Carlson’s part. Now we will probably never know the truth about her behavior.
Don’t bandy about “annulment” or “divorce” quite so easily. These are very serious matters. They shouldn’t be taken lightly. Nor should you allow emotion to cloud your judgment or prevent you from doing a little fact checking. You cited the popular version of a sensationalized tragedy without considering the possibility it might be wrong or at the very least have other dimensions. And I’m quite certain most people who have heard about Maria Teresa Carlson and Governor Fariñas would do the same. That’s sad. It makes me even more sad to realize that no one ever bothered to ask about her children. Or anyone else to her that may have been affected by her death. Like her husband. Like how the people of Laoag say that in the aftermath of Ms Carlson’s suicide the governor spends most of the time with his children, doing chores like going to the grocery with them. But people are quick to talk about how the man was accused of abusing his children.
That, to me, is where the real tragedy lies. And it will only be more tragic if Filipinos cannot prove themselves responsible enough to properly use a right like Divorce.
Sorry — I wrote “President Estrada.” It should read “President Arroyo.” Her letter made reference to President Estrada.
@ Johnny S
I knew the guy was that “betamax scumbag” Farinas but I wanted @ Bea to tell me how much she knew. If you saw the mouth watering Vivian Velez sex video, you would know this scums MO.
“Mouth watering?” What the F**K is the matter with you? Getting off on exploiting women? WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL HERE!?
The divorce law is long overdue and should have been implemented a very long time. As Muslims, we are able to practice divorce as it is provided in Shariah Law and is duly recognized by Philippine Law. But for non-Muslims, this is not available other than annulment which is a very expensive and tedious process.
I would just like to point out your usage of the word ‘jihadist’. In Islam, there is no such thing as a ‘jihadist’ Jihad is an Arabic term that means struggle. A struggle towards the way of Islam. It is not solely confined to military defense or a war term. A jihad could be a personal struggle to doing the right thing and can be as simple as being more self-aware, avoiding bad influences, controlling one’s urges to commit something bad that could be detrimental to one’s health, family, community or environment,etc.
Yeah, I use the term “jihadist” in the context of how it is now being referred to in mainstream contemporary discussion (much the same way as “gay” no longer used to refers to the state of being “happy”).
@yojichan
And in your religion, a simple divorce message via text already constitutes a divorce!
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/169939
Snippet:
“If you kept his message in which he clearly stated a divorce, this is sufficient to prove that divorce has taken place.”
Once upon a time some congressmen proposed to legalize divorce in the Philippines. This proposal never even got to first base. Reason: Cory Aquino said she does not want it. The end. Will the 2nd Aquino endorse the bill? Of course not!Like mother, like son. We already know that whatever the Aquinos want Aquinos get.But this time BS Aquino and the Church will be allies.There is no point arguing. There will be only two sides to the question whether or not to enact the law, Those who are happily married who never really experienced the hell of a failed marriage and those who are enduring the suffering in a marriage on the rocks. And how many Filipinos are and have been confined to the fate of a hopelessly and unendurable prison of a failed marriage? Try asking false(excuse me, I mean Pulse Asia) survey.
I used to hold on that Divorce shouldn’t be allowed due to religious ground, though the following post from the pastor convinced me otherwise.
“To be sure, Protestants recognize this holy and lifelong institution, but they also saw the total depravity of man’s heart. Thus, they saw that God has provided a solution to those marriages that are seriously defiled and irreparably damaged by human rebellion against God, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so†(Matt 19:8).”
http://www.twoagespilgrims.com/doctrine/?p=4623
Let me tell you something about divorce and marriages in the Netherlands.
First of all we have church weddings and civil weddings (and other official ways for 2 people to live together). If we only talk about weddings then the following applies: only civil weddings are officially recognized by the government and businesses/companies. A church wedding alone has no official and no legal status.
One in each 3 marriages end in a divorce and this figure is pretty constant over the years. Personally I think that figure is high. Divorce doesnt need much to be settled. Just say that there are irreconciliable differences and you have your divorce. As a human being I wonder how 2 people got that far that they need a divorce. Did something go wrong somewhere along the line (where, when, why and how)? Did it become boring and dull, did they stop communicating properply, did they make the wrong choice from the start. Its a myth to think a partner will only look for a mate to mate and take care of the kids. A relationship needs much more than that. And it needs a lot of maintenance from both parties. Modern people in a relationship will not consumate their marriage by procreating. They will consciously choose for a career, more free time, more holidays without the annoyance of the presence of kids. They want to live a quality life, in privacy and not being bothered by kids who demand attention. Is that selfish? Well, you only live once. Can there be happiness without kids? Of course there is.
Most dutch will not be dictated by what a bible or church will tell them to do. They have a mind of their own and are very good capable and able to make good and right decisions.
The bible was written more than 2000 years ago. The world looked different then. But over those 2000+ years people change, the world changes and circumstances changes. People adapt to that to their own needs. Unfortunately the church and the bible do not adapt and do not change.
Pastor Ernie said here that god loves you. But not homosexuals (gays and lesbians). So his love is limited to only heterosexual men and women. There are poeple who follow their heart and prefer their own genders/sexes. Thats where the church and bible fail big time. And that is why (among other things) they lose support from the duth society.
Nicely put. Why do people need someone to tell them what is right and what is wrong? Can’t you figure it out for yourself? This is supposed to be a country that has separation of Church and State but doesn’t. If you want freedom and “democracy” you better learn to think critically and for yourself, not be dictated to by priests and politicians.
@T4Man,
I think I need to warn you about my country and its population. I think we are uncomparable to any other country in the world. I say that without bragging and without sounding arrogant. By saying we are uncomparable I dont mean we are better. We just have far more freedom(s) and far more liberties than probably any other country. We lived like how the Philippines live today, so I know where you are. I just dont understand and dont comprehend that most Filipinos & Filipinas still live and still think that way today. If I have to embrace and live like the Philippines today then its a time warp (back to the – Dutch – 1950s) for me. Sorry to say but I want move forward and not backwards.
@T4Man,
To add:
the dutch society is not a society that listens to politicians or what is preached each sunday in church. We are not blind followers. Each will determine on their own what they will do, how they will do it. We – the dutch – live in an individualized society. In an society where older/elder people still want to live on their own and not want to live in the their kids houses.
@Pastor Ernie,
you are talking about the afterlife, right? What do you know about it, have you been there? You talk – while preaching – about marriages and weddings but what do you know about that? You talk about procreation but you can only fantasies about the word and act. What do you know about male & female love when you never experienced it yourself. Pls talk about things you experienced yourself or give some real proof and evidence.
Walk the walk, talk the talk.
Robert,
If you read the Bible you will find all the answers to your questions. It will fill in the emptiness in your heart that nothing else will. Do not be distracted by the material trappings of life for it is nothing but a drop in the ocean of eternity.
God loves you so much that he does not want you to suffer an everlasting torment in hell. That is why he sacrificed his only son, Jesus Christ, to save us from our sins so we may enter the kingdom of heaven.
All you have to do is open your heart and ask for Jesus to save you. I know, it takes courage to admit that you are wrong. But I am sure that in the end, you will do the right thing.
I will pray for you.
God bless.
@Pastor Ernie,
From birth I am an atheist (that is not a religion). I am also not very familair with the bible. Never read it. I only (think) I know the obvious dictates of the bible: like, no sex before marriage, marriage between a man and woman, and procreate like rabbbits.
If and when my partner (she is a Filipina) want to marry in the Philippines in a church then I have to convert myself to christian/roman catholic. For the sake of making her happy (and out of compliance sake to please her parents) I can and could do that but I also feel at the same time that such a conversion is very hypocritical for me. Why? Because I will stay the same person, no matter what. I will not change the way I think about issues.
And to make you very disappointed, both my partner and I already engaged in pre marital sex. A sin? Not for me and hopefully also not for my partner. I always told her not to do things against her will. Sex and all other things must be done mutually and consentually. For me it was and is no sin because I (we) did it and do it because we love each other. For me sex has nothing to do with procreation. Sex has to do with 2 people who love other, melting like one, romance, emotion, passion, lust and finally a simultaneous orgasm for both her and me.
I dont see myself as the provider of bread (or rice when living in the Philippines), protection and my sperm cells for making her pregnant every time we engage in sex. That is shallow and very boring. I like to see in my partner, my equal soul mate who thinks about major issues the same way I do.
And by the way, if you still think that god makes my partner pregnant then I would suggest you read your biology book again and better. It only needs quality female egg cells, quality male sperm cells and right moment to let those 2 fuse and merge (that is also known as her ovulation). God has no hand in that process. In short, I only need to make love once every month to (try to) make her pregnant. On the other 27 days of the month she never will get pregnant.
And when she is pregnant, I have to wait at least another year to have sex again to make her pregnant. But at most I only want one kid. And to be very honest, I want none. I may only please my partner by letting her have one. I really think her wish is culturally and/or religiously dictated, unfortunately.
I dont need a church or bible or religion to make the right decisions. All I need to do is oversee the consequences and if the consequences wont hurt (physically and mentally) myself nor others, then I am okay. And I always may disappoint others. So what, big deal! Live with it, wake up and move on. The disappointments wont kill you (physically nor mentally). And if god is looking over my shoulders and wants to punish me then he already had a lot of chances to do so (but he didnt so far). I am not god-fearing. Why should I? How can I fear something that doesnt exist, in the first place. Why should I fear something that doesnt exist?
I am afraid of flying bec the plane might crash on a mountain. The plane exist, the mountain exist. Far more realistic than fearing something nobody ever saw.
I cant speak on behalf of god, so I cant say “god bless”.
What I can say is that I wish you genuinely all the best.
Robert,
God has a divine plan. Everything happens for a reason. Did it even occur to you that meeting your Filipina partner was God’s way of showing you the path of Jesus Christ. You may say that you will convert out of convenience but I say you will convert because it is the divine plan of God. Slowly, you will being to understand that God loves you so much that he sacrificed his only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to save us from our sins so we may enter the kingdom of heaven.
I am thankful that God brought you your Filipina partner. She will open the door that will lead to your salvation.
I will pray for you both.
God bless.
@Ernie,
“Did it even occur to you that meeting your Filipina partner was God’s way of showing you the path of Jesus Christ.”
No, she was registered at the same international dating website as me. We accidentally meet each other there. We started to exchange notes on that website and then we started to chat. She was drawn to my attention bec she behaved differently than other Filipinas. After 4 months, I told her I liked her very much that I wanted to meet her in real. So, I was in full control of my own actions. If she was boring or if I was not in a way attracted to her then nothing would have happened. I wanted to find out if we could have the same fun, same serious conversations, same laughters when being together in real life compared to being only online chatting. So I dont see the hand of god in that. I was in full control, I suggested my visit and she said yes. And during my first visit to her, she and I had pre marital sex, mutually and consentually.
“You may say that you will convert out of convenience but I say you will convert because it is the divine plan of God.”
At least out of compliance sake to please her, to please the rest of her family, friends and barangay. But if for her a civil wedding is/would be enough then I would opt for a civil wedding instead of a church wedding. As stated before, even if I convert myself, after the conversion I will remain the same atheist guy that I was all my life, no matter what.
“Slowly, you will being to understand that God loves you so much that he sacrificed his only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to save us from our sins so we may enter the kingdom of heaven.”
In all my previous/former relationships all my former partners and I engaged in pre marital sex. So to that effect I sinned all my life. I dont boast or brag about that but that is normal in our society.
“I am thankful that God brought you your Filipina partner. She will open the door that will lead to your salvation.”
On numerous occassions I asked my partner to talk about her religion in an open, respectful way. But she didnt want to. She refused. I think bec she is more religious than she ever told me. And that she was/is afraid I might leave her because of that. Hence she probably thinks its safer for her not to talk about her religion and how she thinks about it.
“I will pray for you both.”
I really think praying for us is a waste of time, effort and energy. I am not the lost sheep here.
Maybe my partner is a gold digger, maybe she is genuine and sincere in her love for me. I see a lot of Filipinas here (in my country) who only seek one thing and that is financial benefit by leaving their own country and searching for a rich and wealthy westerner and on every occassion going back to her family and send money back home. I still want to see more of the world. The Philippines (Cebu) is not exactly the most beautiful place on earth. And the Philippines isnt exactly the most open and openminded society, culture on this planet. The Philippines live today, like we – Dutch – lived 60-70 years ago. I want to move forward, not backwards.
Pastor, just stop the sales pitch already. You are the type of christian that i tend to have problems with, the ones who cant respect another person’s belief.
You are basically the type that is reliant on the fact the christianity is placing his bet on a more safer gamble.
‘If there is an afterlife, i get heaven. If there is none, then at least im not in hell’.
See that statement? You see how wrong that is? If you really were trying to enlighten someone, you dont keep pushing the afterlife advantage unless that is the only thing that it has got working for it?
Sphinx,
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Do you even know your Bible? Read the passage above. That clearly states that you can only attain salvation through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. If you argue that other religions are equally valid, then you are calling Jesus a LIAR?
He’s a liar? HEESALAYER? HEESALAYER? Got it? I think not.
Jesus is not a liar. Therefore John 14:6 is TRUE. To deny John 14:6 is to deny Jesus. To deny John 14:6 is to deny Christianity.
You cannot cut and paste pieces of the Bible you like. You must accept it all as true or deny God. Please examine your faith and make your decision. I am tired of “poser Christians” who are all talk but are unwilling to commit to the teachings of the Bible.
I will pray for your soul.
God bless.
@Sphynx: Maybe I should plray for your soul because shoving other people’s beliefs is a bad idea.
You wanna tell them about these? It’s their CHOICE if they will accept or not. Please, stop your bickering, PE. Don’t you know what have you done?
I’m a Christian, yes. But I never engage in this nonsensical debate and use the name of Jesus just to TROLL on other people. He Himself doesn’t like that. 😛
@Sphynx: Ooops! Apologies. I just want to direct it on ‘Pastor Ernie’ guy. Let’s try to flabbergast him, shall we? 🙂
@Pastor
Actually you are the one cutting and pasting portions of the bible. Because if you want to acknowledge it as a whole word for word then there are problems in your book if you want to adhere to it.
1) The bible said it is okay to stone you children in the Old Testament.
2) God takes the form a winged creature. A pastor took me to this chapter (Psalms or Proverbs I think) to use as a counter arguement for those who take the Bible word for word. The pastor told everyone that by the text alone God should be a chicken.
These are just some examples. There are a lot when you want to take them literally. Keep in mind pastor you are reading a modified translated version basically mutilated from the original text. I sent you links right? Afraid of watching them because the facts scare you?
Whoever Jesus was a liar or not? Did I say it? No! I said the facts are here that the Bible is the work of man and was altered by man as well. So the Bible in our present timeline is no longer the Bible that was present after his death. There is also the issue of loss in translation.
Others have argued that it was not the Red Sea that was split during moses’ time, it was the Reed Sea because of translation issues. Now there is a certain number that acknowledge the Reed Sea while there is still a remainder that still follow/adhere to the Red Sea. So which is it?
It is now a matter of preference and interpretation. Or basically what some upper echelon guy like a Pastor tells you and the others seem to follow without considering other details anymore right? To consider something else could be blasphemous in your book Pastor is it not?
And Trosp, I am not saying the Catholic/Christian faith is wrong, just that this Pastor needs to stop preaching here and pitching his propaganda here. We get it, he is the type of christian who is bordering on extreme.
And to follow Pastor, the saying you posted John 14:6 has basically damned everyone before the existence of the Bible/Jesus Christ. No one believed the existence of Jesus Christ prior to his “birth” and as such since there is no exception except through him, even Moses be damned.
Cheers Pastor! Word for word right? That statement alone is clear cut and no second passage or fact should be added to it.
Religious arguments usually irritate me. I have no problem with someone adopting a religion and defend their right to do so. What I have a problem with are ignorant drones. I keep reading that the Philippines is 80% Catholic. That’s a laugh. They may say they’re Catholic or gone through catechism but they are not true to their so-called beliefs. I know a man that is kind, respectful but not particularly religious. He has more Christian virtues than the bus driver with the plastic Jesus on his dashboard that ran me off the road.
Why is the Philippines a “Catholic” country? Only one reason; the Spanish showed up one day and forced it on the population. It continues today only out of some kind of misguided notion that it’s “expected”. How many Filipinos CHOSE their religion? Did they individually go on a spiritual quest and discover the Truth during Mass? Fat chance. Why are there Muslims in Mindanao? Did a priest and an imam show up and say, “Here folks, pick one”?
This is no place to bring up religion in a mature and healthy discussion. It will lead to nowhere my dear “pastor”.
You can have morals and be an upstanding human being without religion or just plainly being “christian”.
You have a conscience/moral compass, and individually we each have our own barometer to determine the fact. Does you being christian make you a better person than us? NO! It just makes you a person who is a christian and I use the term loosely because to be a christian is to be christ-like and we all know that very few manage to even to do that. They are more the exception rather than the rule.
And to preach of the afterlife is the main “sales pitch” of Christianity. It is the means to which they pull you in. Without it, there is no “benefit” if you take that out. That is what I don’t like about the faith. The believer expects something in return in the end. Something grand and you cannot deny that. Just because it is a non monetary return does not mean it is not a self serving purpose. You basically try to be christian because you want a “better afterlife”. And even if you are bad in your whole life, if you turn a new life at the very end, you are also saved. I think this part is mainly after population and converts already.
But I better stop now because I do not really want to offend anyone and more of expressing what I think there is something critically wrong with the whole thing.
@17
Actually afterlife is more about spirituality.
Spirituality, one can take it or leave it.
@trosp
I do not contest thatbut again since this spirituality and faith is a matter of choice, why is it that if the belief is non-christian (buddhist, hindu, shinto, muslim, etc) it is ‘wrong’?
In principle dont all these religions teach you to be ‘good’? Ad if ‘god’ was really omnipotent, then could it not be argued that he is in fact the source of all religions that are basically parallel in teachings of good? Hence there is no religion that is essentially wrong as it teaches good?
Far fetched? Maybe, but if you believe anything is possible with god then my theory falls under that and i say that is more possible than just saying he made just 1 religion to save 1 group of people only or the chosen ones.
Cheers!
“I do not contest thatbut again since this spirituality and faith is a matter of choice, why is it that if the belief is non-christian (buddhist, hindu, shinto, muslim, etc) it is ‘wrong’?”
Did all Christians say that it is wrong?
Ask me, I’m a Catholic, and I would tell you to get your life whatever you want it to be.
@trosp
And that is okay with you but there are people like the Pastor over there who are not okay with it. My christian friends are okay with it and that is why wer are still close friends. If they were that type of people like Pastor Ernie, I may have already been excommunicated from the group.
The post was directed for Pastor Ernie shoving it to non-christians here that his is the only way. I have no beef with you per se Trosp.
Cheers!
“Ask me, I’m a Catholic, and I would tell you to get your life whatever you want it to be.” – Trosp
—–
But you are not an authority nor speak for the Catholics. You are a colorum and that’s the problem.
@Jonaz
Did I say I’m an authority with my opinion about Catholicism?
It’s a plain common sense. Unfortunately for you, you don’t have that.
I can say that with authority.
Trosp, before benignoy delete my posts and saves you as usual, read again what you wrote.
You said, ‘ask you, you’re a Catholic’. That presupposes that what you say would be representative or reflective of what a Catholic would say or think.
I tell you, no right thinking Catholic will tell you to “get your life whatever you want it to be”. No such thing. The reason Catholics have bibles and philosophies and principles and ceremonies and priests and churches and the Vatican is for you to have a planned, well-meaning and complete life in accordance with the wishes and thinking of the Church and God.
Next time you volunteer to be asked just don’t mention being a Catholic because you are misleading people.
You’re really an idiot.
This is the exchanges of opinion with Sphynx idiot –
““I do not contest thatbut again since this spirituality and faith is a matter of choice, why is it that if the belief is non-christian (buddhist, hindu, shinto, muslim, etc) it is ‘wrong’?â€
Did all Christians say that it is wrong?
Ask me, I’m a Catholic, and I would tell you to get your life whatever you want it to be.”
Idiot.
It’s hard to believe we live in the 21st century when we have all these anachronisms who act as if they’re living in the 13th century and fancy themselves “warriors of God”. They’re like children.
Christianity has always relied on a dubious afterlife to consolidate its mind control over human beings through fear of divine punishment. This promotes a sort of moral nihilism that shuns life and embraces slave mentality. It does little to promote personal responsibility and instead relies on fear to encourage good actions. As has been often said, “if people do good only because they fear punishment and want rewards, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”
a friend of mine actually argues with me with regards to my not being christian. I mean there is respect existing in our friendship and they don’t really push it to the extreme “convert you mode” discussions/meetings.
But I found it illogical for that person to say that acts of good generally do not bring you “their salvation”.
I wanted so much to argue but I restrained. Here however, I will raise my case. A good person (a non-christian) who never hurt/steal/wronged anyone and took responsibility of his actions has no chance in “their heaven” just because he is a non christian.
Yet a reformed thief/conman/murderer who has changed to be a christian can be in “their heaven” just because he is a christian/reformed christian.
It makes no sense for one to “assume” that christianity” will bring you a “better afterlife”. It is, as I have stated, a self-serving practice as you believe you will reap a benefit from your actions as a “christian” and give glory to the person up there. And you basically damn everyone else not in the same “group” as you to an extreme opposite of your afterlife reward.
That pretty much sums it up right?
@17
“A good person (a non-christian) who never hurt/steal/wronged anyone and took responsibility of his actions has no chance in “their heaven†just because he is a non christian.”
The answer is simple.
That good person is not asking for heaven.
I also have this story to tell.
A group of atheist is suing a Christian group for saying that atheist will go to hell in their afterlife.
@trosp
It is not about wanting to be in heaven or not. But rather that the christians see non-christians as damned to non-heaven eventhough they are not evil, in the general sense of the word.
The only argument i wanted to raise was not that non christians should also be welcome in ‘heaven’ but they should get off their high horse as its basically a sales pitch with a scare tactic bundled into it. ‘be a member now and be entitled to all the benefits of our clubhouse later on. Non members are not entitled to it nor can we guarantee their safety in the end. Join now while slots last’ some are using the ‘2nd coming’ as part of the recruitment pitch anyway so you as christians know what that entails.
Cheers!
Do I have to repeat my explanation?
That good person is not asking for heaven.
Why afraid of it if you don’t believe in it.
Damn those Christians who believe in heaven and hell!
I’m a Catholic who believes in absolute morality and I would not be offended if I hear somebody yelling that to my ear.
Leave it or love it…he he he..
Trosp,
If your belief that other religions or “morality” can get you into heaven, then why did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have to be sacrificed to save us from our sins? If you can worship Buddha, then Jesus is liar because he specifically said “only through me can you enter the kingdom of heaven.”
You call yourself a catholic yet you do not even know your own Bible. You just cherry pick the parts you like and ignore the parts that don’t agree with your world view. This shows your self-centeredness as you are unwilling to commit to the teachings of Christ.
You call yourself a Christian yet you do not know what it means to be one. This is the problem in our world today. People wanting God to serve them it should be them serving God.
I will pray for your soul.
God bless.
@Pastor
Read again my comments. Read them slowly so as to comprehend them.
I’ll also pray for your soul.
@17Sphynx17
I myself subscribe to the Kierkegaardian view of choice. According to the 19th century Danish existential philosopher and Christian Soren Kierkegaard, faith can never be justified by reason because it is itself irrational. This is why being a Christian means making a conscious decision to conform to an irrational belief or a belief that is not based on rationality. One can only make that “leap of faith”, as with any belief system of that nature.
This means choosing to believe rather than believing due to some rational necessity or logical outcome or to any other imperative, moral or cultural or any other.
He said it is more sincere that way, and I tend to agree.
And that’s the problem with proselytizing (especially when included with appeals to Bible verses). It ultimately falls to individual choice, to a person making that “leap of faith”.
@Pastor Ernie,
In my country its very hard and very difficult to get “unsubscribed” from a religious group/church. Is it possible to get an annullment with the church? I am sure there are also “enlightened” religious poeple in the Philippines who dont want to do anything anymore with their former faith/religion/church. As it were, those want to undo the baptismal act. Is that possible? If I can annull a marriage, I suppose I can also annull my faith/religion. Is it?
Robert,
You can ignore God but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring God. He loved you so much that he sacrificed his only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to save us from our sins and you willfully reject this most generous act of selflessness. What else more can I say? I will pray for your soul.
God Bless.
@Ernie,
If god loves/loved me so much then where was he when my mom died when she was 55 years young; where was he when my dad died when he was 69 years young? Were both parents punished by god? Then it is a cruel and heartless thing. Why didnt god cured both my parents? You see, I have no faith in god if he doesnt do anything.
Robert,
Did your parents accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. If so, then do not be troubled for they will spend an eternity in heaven.
If the DID NOT, well then John 14:6 clearly states:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So Jesus is the only way to salvation. That verse cannot make it any more clear. So if your parents are burning in hell, then I am sorry. But it is not too late for you and your Filipina partner. It sounds like she is already saved and once you be saved also. Please listen to her and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
I will pray for you.
God Bless.
@Ernie,
“Did your parents accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. If so, then do not be troubled for they will spend an eternity in heaven.”
No, my mom was protestant and she never dictated/told/taught us what to do with any religion. We were free to go.
“If the DID NOT, well then John 14:6 clearly states: Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So Jesus is the only way to salvation. That verse cannot make it any more clear. So if your parents are burning in hell, then I am sorry. But it is not too late for you and your Filipina partner. It sounds like she is already saved and once you be saved also. Please listen to her and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.”
Both my parents were cremated so I genuinely doubt if they burn in hell. Dead is dead. Why else call it dead if there still is an afterlife?
There is a lot I dont like about the Philippines. For instance the overwhelming control and power the CBCP has over education. It limits students in their knowledge. Step down and provide students with the truth. Knowledge is power. Dont scare those students with “to know too much can be dangerous”. Knowledge should be readily available and should be conveyed unlimited. This is one of the reasons why I will never let my kid (if any) enroll/enlist in any Philippine school. My Filipina partner graduated from a university (USJ-R); well any dutch university graduate knows far more, has far more knowledge than what my partner has been taught at USJ-R. And that is a shame and disgrace for the Philippine educational system. No Philippine university should be allowed to carry the title of university.
“I will pray for you.”
I am sure you have better things to do then praying for me. Its a waste of time, energy and effort.
@Ernie,
Today, your boss, Mr. Ratzinger, said that “homosexuals destroy the human persuasion”. “One can not chose its own persuasion, its given to you from birth”, he also stated. You see again, its all dictated as if one’s heart and or mind is not allowed to make a choice between heterosexuality or homosexuality. For crying out loud, let people make their own decision and back off. If one opts for his/her own gender than that is a personal, individual matter.
@Robert
Maybe you should expound further with your comments –
“Both my parents were cremated so I genuinely doubt if they burn in hell. Dead is dead. Why else call it dead if there still is an afterlife?”
You would not know it if they burn in hell, don’t you?
Afterlife is for those who believe in it. It’s an spiritual thing.
You don’t believe it then don’t. No harm, no foul.
(Why is it it that I’m confused to hear those Catholics in the congress when they passed the RH bill against the wish of the Church because they claim that Bible teachings needs reform to adapt to modernization and yet they would make an issue about excommunication! Shouldn’t this excommunication also a politically incorrect thing? It’s for the old fashioned Catholics?)
“There is a lot I dont like about the Philippines. For instance the overwhelming control and power the CBCP has over education. It limits students in their knowledge.”
How about giving us examples?
To tell you this about Philippine education –
Snippet –
“”There are people who worry about being foreign graduates,” Mr. Rosner said, ”but Philippine medical school graduates have a good reputation. Both Filipino doctors and Americans who graduated from here are doing well in the United States.””
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/21/world/us-students-turn-to-the-philippines.html
You want some more?
@Trosp,
“Both my parents were cremated so I genuinely doubt if they burn in hell. Dead is dead. Why else call it dead if there still is an afterlife?†You would not know it if they burn in hell, don’t you? Afterlife is for those who believe in it. It’s an spiritual thing. You don’t believe it then don’t. No harm, no foul.
======
I dont know what will happen with me and my body the moment I breathe my last breath. I dont believe in an after life and I dont believe in burning in hell. But if both or either will happen then I will see. But the “funny” thing about it is that bec we will not return on earth we cant discuss and talk about it. So nobody has any proof. Thats why the promise of a heaven is too easy and too simple for me. Nobody can check it bec we wont return as the same persons. At least I dont believe in reincarnation. Was I a plant in my previous life? Who knows?
====
“There is a lot I dont like about the Philippines. For instance the overwhelming control and power the CBCP has over education. It limits students in their knowledge.†How about giving us examples?
====
Either this (CBCP) was told to me by my partner or I read it somewhere. Sorry, I cant give you any hard copy source of where I might have read it. But am I wrong? Are students taught everything during Biology class (section: the human body and reproduction; prevention of pregnancy in natural and artifical ways) or are parts deliberately skipped? If they were not skipped then how come that the population is sky high? Then why the need for an RH Law? Knowledge is power!!!!
=====
To tell you this about Philippine education –
Snippet –
“â€There are people who worry about being foreign graduates,†Mr. Rosner said, â€but Philippine medical school graduates have a good reputation. Both Filipino doctors and Americans who graduated from here are doing well in the United States.â€â€
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/21/world/us-students-turn-to-the-philippines.html
You want some more?
=====
As mentioned elsewhere, my partner graduated from university of San Jose – Recoletos (Cebu City). A university is in regular education the highest form of education one can attend and graduate from (this applies in my country). Even drop outs from university are regarded having a higher IQ and a higher general knowledge than graduates from High School and College. I was and am flabbergasted the lack of knowledge and the lack of general knowledge my partner shows each day. And that includes all her friends I have met who also graduated from the same university. It was and is impossible to have a proper intellectual conversation/debate about general daily issues with them. The fact that my partner didnt want and doesnt want to talk about her religion in an open, intellectual, respectful way, tells me enough. And that was just one minor topic.
BTW Robert,
This is your comment: “If one opts for his/her own gender than that is a personal, individual matter.”
When people are allowed to have their complete freedom to choose, unregulated, this is what is happening:
– same-sex intercourse, bestiality, incest, and pederasty (sexual freedom and freedom to choose, heh…)
– gender neutrality (it’s parent 1 or parent 2. No more mom or dad.)
What say you?
@Trosp,
This is your comment: “If one opts for his/her own gender than that is a personal, individual matter.â€
When people are allowed to have their complete freedom to choose, unregulated, this is what is happening:
– same-sex intercourse, bestiality, incest, and pederasty (sexual freedom and freedom to choose, heh…)
– gender neutrality (it’s parent 1 or parent 2. No more mom or dad.)
What say you?
====
It all has to do with the freedom of choice. Each individual should be free to make his/her own choice (by law). And that includes same gender sex (gays and lesbians). Furthermore the law should always protect the weak and those who can not defend themselves. So pedofilia, incest and bestiality should be punishable by law. The problem is – also here in my country – you cannot put a cop on each street corner and eneter your house to see what you are doing. That is also known as a police state and evasing/intruding your privacy. I dont have the knowledge and solutions how to solve pedophilia, incest and bestiality. Maybe cut of their penisses (castrating) once it is established that I am a pedohilaic. I think they did such things in the Middle Ages. A thief was cut off his hands.
In short:
– each individual should be given the freedom, liberty and the human right to choose his/her own sexual persuasion (by law and unprejudiced of religion and culture)
– the law (e.g. the society) should always protect the weak(er) and the defenseless (minors, kids, animals, nature).
– I expect from any mature adult he/she knows what she/he is doing and that he/she oversees all consequences. If not then he/she is not fit and not equipped to live. Then something went wrong during her/his raising. Bec parents are always the first responsible for the actions of their kids. If you dont know how to handle/raise kids then dont make kids.
Thanks Robert, that will make it clear for me and I hope for every comment readers.
Thanks.
@Trosp,
You are welcome.
To draw the line further and remaining consistent, I will also opt for the following:
– each individual should be given the freedom, liberty and the human right to have an abortion (by law and unprejudiced of religion and culture).
– each individual should be given the freedom, liberty and the human right to choose for his/her own euthanasia (by law and unprejudiced of religion and culture).
An individual doesnt have to use/claim the right but at least give the individual a choice to choose from.
Robert,
I’m not putting my word in you mouth, so this is ok for you –
“- same-sex intercourse, bestiality, incest, and pederasty (sexual freedom and freedom to choose, heh…)
– gender neutrality (it’s parent 1 or parent 2. No more mom or dad.)”
Because according to you –
“It all has to do with the freedom of choice. Each individual should be free to make his/her own choice (by law). And that includes same gender sex (gays and lesbians).”
And by law, to liberal judges in US, it is what it is. The judge’s “interpretation” of the law is the law.
So for you, pederasty is ok since there is this NAMBLA organization – freedom of choice isn’t it and it’s the law.
Don’t twist my word, I’m warning you. I’m quoting you vervatim.
Sorry Trosp, but no, no, no.
I am okay with same gender sex. I have gay people in my circle of friends. I dont know any lesbian in my circle but I am okay with both.
I am against pedophilia and bestiality but I dont know how to prevent it. Do you? Hence, kids (the defenseless) and animals (the defenseless) should always be protected by the/a law. But even then I dont how to prevent it from happening. How will I recognize a pedophile. By his/her nose?
I really have no idea what you mean by this:
“- gender neutrality (it’s parent 1 or parent 2. No more mom or dad.)â€
Can you pls elaborate?
I am even okay with when 2 gay guys or 2 lesbians adopt a child (mostly done from a poor 3rd world country, like I think Madonna and Angelina Jolie did) and raise the kid together. From my Psychology study I know it doesnt matter who the parents are (gender wise: male/female, male/male, female/female) as long as the kid gets love and the right stimulation, motivation, inspiration and direction.
Welcome to Hell poor Filipinos. Watch the decent of your culture and the undoing of your country. It will happen, as it is happening her in the United States.
Do not think this to be condescending, it is not at all meant that way. It is telling you what is to come.
I have long admired Filipinos for their kindness and respect, which comes from your cultural heritage. This will slowly disappear and you will not be able to undo it without terrible consequences. I am deeply sorry for you.
Karl,
Do not give up so easily. Begun this spiritual war has and at stake are the souls of millions of Filipinos. The only way to fight the forces of evil is to follow the teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Let the Bible be my shield, his love, my sustenance. There is no challenge I cannot face, no mountain I cannot climb.
God bless.
@Trosp,
I dont know your point of views but let me give you a few examples:
1) my wife/partner gets raped. As my wife’s partner I dont want to see that kid ever bec every time I see it, it reminds me of the rape. Plus biologically it is not my kid. And I cant and wont understand it if my wife would like to see it bec every time it will also remind her of the rape.
In short: pls Phili law (and RC church) help me and make it possible to undo this “mistake”. Give me the option for an abortion.
2) My wife/partner and I are drunk, we end up in a cheap hotel banig and have the greatest sex of all time. But it leads to an unwanted / unplanned / unintended / untimely pregnancy. Now, the Philippine law (and church) wants us to pay dearly for that one mistake we made. Isnt that hard and harsh? So now I need to take my wife to an illegal abortion clinic or to a foreign country to have an abortion. Because we both are poor sods we cant afford to have any kids.
Do you want us to pay deerly for that one mistake we made? Or can we undo that one mistake by having a lawful abortion in the Philippines?
I acknowledge my mistake (after being sober again) but pls give me tools to undo that mistake. You want a kid be put on this planet that isnt wanted? That isnt loved bec it wasnt planned?
Precisely, Robert. I call it accountability. And in your case, you’re turning your back on it.
You have to own your screw-up (no pun intended).
For your screw-up, you have to terminate a life an innocent child? For the sake of a perfect screw.
Jeez!!!
Trosp,
Somewhere, long time ago the dutch government together with the dutch national health care (and mabye with other experts as well) established a definition of what and when a zygote is really te be called a human being. And those findings were probably made into an abortion law (Dutch: abortus).
Do you never make a mistake you wanted you could have undone? What is your idea after your partner/wife gets raped and consequently gets pregnant?
Because a book tells you to keep it, you will keep it? That is the same what happened in Nazi Germany “Befehl ist befehl”
How can you expect me to love a child that was born as a result of a rape and also to spend my own earned money on such a kid, which doesnt carry any of my genes? And every time I see and look at that kid it reminds me of the moment my partner/wife was raped. I am sure I will collapse. I will simply refuse to do all that.
After the actual rape, my partner/wife can still use the “emergency pill” (also known as “morning after pill”) but that pill has to be taken within 24 hrs after the “event”. In that case an abortion is not needed. And the result will be the same: no pregnancy.
I will always accept your view and your personal actions bec that is your personal freedom to do. Thank god we, you and I, are not involved in a romantic relationship. But we still can be real life time friends (no kidding).
“Do you never make a mistake you wanted you could have undone? What is your idea after your partner/wife gets raped and consequently gets pregnant?”
That is a hypothetical question so I’ll give you a hypothetical answer –
I will man up. I won’t terminate a life of an innocent child.
@Trosp,
“That is a hypothetical question so I’ll give you a hypothetical answer – I will man up. I won’t terminate a life of an innocent child.”
So that means you will spend your own money, efforta and time on a child that is genetically not even yours. It was brought on this world by an act of rape. And the conception (sex) was not done with love, not done with the consent of your wife.
I thought most Bloggers here advocates: Stop accepting the mediocrity. This is substandard, below average, below zero. I am refering to the act of rape and all consequences of it. Rape is lacking quality, rape is lacking consent.I find it strange to believe you want to pay such a high prize for rape.
It even stranger for me to believe that a woman is freely willing to continue a pregnancy, which is caused by an act lacking LOVE, without tenderness, without passion, without true intimacy.
I will accept your point your view but I dont understand it and I personally will never agree to it.
Robert,
What I’ve given you is a hypothetical answer to your hypothetical question.
But I would do what I have said in my hypothetical answer. I will not be an instrument in terminating a life of an innocent being. I do however will have no compunction in killing whoever will sexually assault any member of my family.
I walk the talk.
@Trosp,
“What I’ve given you is a hypothetical answer to your hypothetical question. But I would do what I have said in my hypothetical answer. I will not be an instrument in terminating a life of an innocent being. I do however will have no compunction in killing whoever will sexually assault any member of my family. I walk the talk.”
I appreciate your firmness and principle. But you know what: in the past I had many principles but most of them became outdated because of new insights. I am in no way hindered by a religion nor by the dutch culture to form my own mind and opinion. This makes me very flexible and pro-active.
I am sure you are open, flexible and pro-active in a lot of other fields.
For instanc: my parents knew much less than I know bec so much more has been invented, scientifically researched, found out, came to the surface etc, etc, etc. Plus the fact that their generation was totally different. Every new generation wants to move forward and they will embrace the latest technologies and latest ideas.
Lets go back to the topic at hand. A divorce law: During the traditional Phili “dating & courting” stage/phase/process I am sure 2 poeple will come to the conclusion that it wont work and hence they will not continue the relationship. For us, a divorce is not different. Only you may say the marriage was blessed by god. Big deal! Its what happens during that marriage that is important and not that some 3rd party blessed it. If you really think that if god blessed it nothing will happen to make a wedding/marriage go down the drain, you really are wrong.
If god’s powers are so strong then why do so many marriages fail to succeed? If god’s powers are so strong then why cant he side-step (get around / circum navigate) every contraceptive? If god’s powers are so strong then why do I need to make love with my partner only during a few specific days (ovulation) to get her pregnant and not during each day of the month?
Its a waste of time to drag a dead corpse, hence eventually I will file for a divorce.
And BTW Robert, I’m not saying you’re a queer, but in your country and other European places, there are these laws:
“The use of the number 1312 is illegal.
In 2007 a man was arrested for wearing a jacket with the letters ACAB. The police officer knew that those letters mean All Cops Are Basterds. The court googled the acronym and concluded from the 190.000 hits the term was public knowledge and that the police officer had legal grounds to feel insulted. The man got a fined of 200 euro. His case is still under appeal.
This year, three men were arrested for wearing a t-shirt with the number 1312. According to the prosecutor, this again stands for ACAB, All Cops Are Basterds. Using the previous ruling, they were all fined 330 euro (yes, we do have some inflation in the euro-zone).
The number 18 might follow soon, as the Supreme Court found out through google that it stands for AH , which obviously refers to Adolf Hitler.”
“In Amsterdam, a parking permit is needed to park in your own garage
The city of Amsterdam requires owners of a private garage to pay 243 euros for the privilege of parking their car in their own garage.
There are not sufficient parking places on the street in the center of Amsterdam. Parking is metered and expensive, but residents can get a permit to park on the street. You would expect the city to be extreme grateful for everyone willing to spend over 100.000 euros for a private parking spot. Not in Amsterdam.
The official twisted logic is this. For each address only one car is granted a parking permit for the street. If you own a private parking place, you forfeit the right to such parking permit. So the city ‘needs’ to register which car is parked on each privately owned parking spot. For this ‘service’ the citizen is charged 243 euros. Even the city ombudsman, after working for decades in law, can not follow this logic, but the city district council doesn’t care.”
“It is illegal to smoke tobacco in a coffee shop. However it is legal to smoke marijuana in a coffee shop.”
This one is not in Netherlands, but in Switzerland –
“In Switzerland it is forbidden from flushing the toilet after 10 pm. Also, while in Switzerland, pay attention as clothes may not be hung to dry on Sunday.”
“Donald Duck comics were once banned in Finland because he never wore trousers.
Heh, no wonder…
Trosp,
I never said I am proud to be Dutch. The Netherlands is an over-regulated country. For every fart you need a permit/license (you get my drift?). It becomes more annoying when people live in the city center area. When living in the outskirts, suburbs its more relaxed. I dont know exactly how many cars are driven (owned) here but I thought about 8 million on a population of nearly 17 million. Many households own 2 cars (whether one is a leased car or owned by one of the them). This is one of the reasons why the dutch public transport system works (almost) perfect (train, metro, bus, tram, taxi).
I am not a homosexual. But even if I was then I would be okay, I guess. If god created women then he did the best job ever. I dont see a woman’s body as lust- and/or sex object. But god, they do look fantastic and great. If you and I can find common ground on what/which women can be labeled attractive, adorable, sexy and hot then still her inside (character, trait, behaviors, line of thinking, mindset openness, being openminded, oldfashioned/conservative/modern, etc) is far more important to me (regardless of religion, nationality, age, culture). On the other hand: if her inside is perfect and her outside looks are ugly, fat then I cant imagine myself making love with her. Have you ever tried to make passionate love with a real ugly 130 kgs woman? That is gross! That is a big turn off!!!
In short: Our parents may share their opinion to us – mature kids – but eventually we will make our own decisions. You will call that disrespectfull to our parents but not always the parents have the right knowledge. Similar with laws. When we want abortion but the law forbids it then we will seek it elsewhere. We live in an individualized (not to be confused with selfishness) society. My future is not with my parents but with myself or me and a partner. If and when I am an homosexual and I want to have a civil wedding with another guy but our laws forbid it then I will seek a country where it is allowed.
@Trosp,
I know where you are coming from (methaforically). You come from a different country with different ideologies, with different set of religions, with different minds, with different constitutions and different laws. Each, all or none may have brain-washed or indoctrinated your mind.
In my country there is more “ratio” / “rationale”. The governmental experts (from the department of health) together with specialists from the field (midwives, OB-gyns, professors) probably once established when an unborn foetus/zygote can really be called a human being. And conception is probably not that moment to label it as an (living (but still unborn), self supporting) human being.
Their findings was probably put into an abortion law. So if I am correct then a pregnant woman can have an abortion untill her 20th week of pregnancy. I can only conclude that if an abortion would take place AFTER the 20th week, we will also call it “killing a human being” and then it becomes a criminal act bec killing is against the law. But for as long as something cant be called/labeled as a human being, you cant kill it either.
Maybe Trosp you should/can do some research what some countries say about the unborn child, when it is called/labeled a human being and hence when and why its doable to have an abortion. With that new information maybe just maybe you can redefine your mind and your own definition. Not that you have to.
We just have choices and we will use them in case we really want to undo a mistake we made. Dont you ever make a mistake? Didnt you ever break a plate by letting it slip from your sweaty hands? Didnt you ever crash into an another car bec you werent paying attention for a split second? And maybe as a result; someone in the other car died?
Didnt you ever leave a bag behind in a bus bec you were so pre-occupied with other things?
Are you the perfect soul on this planet? (no pun intended).
In 99% of all cases sex is never intended for procreational purposes. Only that 1% is for for procreational purposes after both parties have established and vented mutually and consentually and independently from each other, they have a child-wish. After that “revelation” of both, they still will wait to find the right moment to start. We will wait till all circumstances are good (at least), perfect (at best). That is exactly why we will not accept an untimely, unwanted, unplanned pregnancy. And thank god we have options and choices to undo that.
So, in short, just married couples will not start to have sex for procreational purposes. They will start first with enjoying the married life, continue their employment, continue to be married without kids, travel the world together without kids while they still are young and then after X years they may decide to have kids. Only low educated couples will have kids straight after the wedding. They do that to fill a void, to fill a gap, to fill an emptiness bec they simply dont have any idea how else to fill it (no real hobbies and all that). That is what I call poverty. If/When 2 people sre so desperate to get married then at least enjoy being married, explore the world (you are still young now), keep working (both) so it can give you some savings (rainy day and all that!!!)
@Robert
According to you –
“If god’s powers are so strong then why do so many marriages fail to succeed? If god’s powers are so strong then why cant he side-step (get around / circum navigate) every contraceptive? If god’s powers are so strong then why do I need to make love with my partner only during a few specific days (ovulation) to get her pregnant and not during each day of the month?”
Why be contented wit that one?
Maybe you can also ask yourself, if God is so powerful, why didn’t He make us all perfect?
@Trosp,
“Why be contented with that one? Maybe you can also ask yourself, if God is so powerful, why didn’t He make us all perfect?”
Very good question. And I am sure we can come up with even more similar kind of questions with god in it. And as long as the answers to those questions can be /are answered negatively the entire concept of a god becomes less visible and less likely.
To answer your question: For an almighty power constructing earth with all its inhabitants is a great magnificent job. For me its like parents putting a few kids on this planet but not paying any attention to those kids. That is an irresponsible job. Now, those parents do exist but from an almighty “person” like god I cant imagine he would create something and seconds later he turns his back to it. Start a job and finish a job.
In summary: In most parts of the world we are individuals and we ourselves determine and decide what is good and what is right to do. We are shaped (in part) by what our parents give us (how they raised us and by their genes). After we leave the “nest”/”den” we are out there on our own. And because of the generation gap we might do things differently than our parents did, we might think differently than our parents did. That is what we call progress and evolvement (moving forward). If I would think like my parents did then I would be a very old-fashioned, very conservative and a very grumpy guy.
Hence god is not all powerfull if he ever existed or exists.
Dear Robert,
In 1990, after ten years together and six children, one child died before birth, my wife left me. Actually she threw me out through deceit. She soon started an affair which became a civil marriage, when she was promised an annulment through the corrupted tribunals in America.
She lost that battle in Rome in 2002 but had married her lover in
1992, when the nullity case was placed in the hands of a corrupt judge. They were not married in Church but by a civil judge.
She and her lover had two children now 16 and 19.
Though circumstances, these children of adultery have come to see
my faithfulness to our vows and their parents continuing errors. They are between a rock and a hard place but they know that I see
them as loved by God and necessary in his plans. In addition, I have
told them both that I love them and they should not bear a burden for their parents decision. Right now, as I post this, I am sitting before the Blessed Sacrament where I am praying for numerous things and people. All of our children are in those prayers as well as
my wife and her lover, for God’s will to be done.
No one said it should be easy. In fact, it is a blessing to be given the
opportunity to suffer along with Chirst but it is a difficult thing to
face, sometimes, in our weakness. I know. I complain. But He said,
“take up your cross and follow me”. That is what it is about.
Do not think that it is so cut and dried and easy. It is not. I shed many tears and hurt, terribly and often. But each life is precious.
One of the two children of my wife’s adultery heard that I was praying for her and it hurt her but helped her to understand what
the choice to love, means. She said that even though her existance
causes me pain, I pray for her. She knows she is loved and is precious to me, regardless that my DNA is not hers.
Had I the choice, even when she was growing inside her mother, to
end her life because her conception was adulterous, I would have
chosen for her life. She is innocent.
So, soften your heart my friend. Love hurts but it hurts in a wonderful way, sometimes. I am living what I speak. I am NO saint.
Perhaps these words do not go to the heart of your concerns but,
for love to grow and to be infectious, it must not be a selfish, what’s
good for me centered love; it must be a sacrificial outwardly focused love, especially toward all people, especially the most vulnerable, the unborn. But, our spouses must share in that love FIRST so that children are born into intact domestic Churches, with a mother and a father, who will do whatever they can to nuture their
spouses journey to eternity in heaven. When they live this their
children see this. They see the choices. They see what real love is.
It gives them life. It surrounds them with security.
Abortion and divorce are excuses for selfishness and short sightedness. IT BREAKS MY HEART to read what Filipinos are doing
to themselves.
I must get back to some time with my savior now. God bless.
Dear Karl,
Thank you – sincerely and genuinely – for sharing this event. It mustnt be easy to share such a personal event with me.
Technically you may call and label your wife’s actions as adultry. For me, if that would happen to me, I wouldnt expect anything else. Unless of course she is 35+ in age. That is considered to be the dangerous age for women who want to have kids.
To be very honest with you Karl, I am glad I live in a country that has laws that give me options to choose from. Like a divorce, like an abortion, like euthanasia. For both abortion and euthanasia there are strict restrictions and/or requirements. Its not that a family member can just simply ask the doctor to pull the plug. There are strict legal requiremnets for a doctor before he can start the process of euthanasia. Abortion can be done till the 20th week of pregnancy (approx the 5th month) in any dutch hospital. Abortion is a lot simpler. The woman/wife/girl will just go to any hospital ans ask for an bortion. Maybe/hopefully she consented with her boyfriend/partner/husband first but in the end, she is the one who is carrying the baby. Th girl will probably be “sent” home by her Gyn in order to re-think her request. If after 7-8 days later she still wants the abortion, the Gyn will perform the abortion.
@Karl, (to add)
I am not a religious person. But its not right (intellectually and emotionally) to have 2 people stick together when the relationship doesnt work at all. By then its time to split. Both can visit a marriage-counsellor, or a mediator, or a therapist or a psychologist but if all fail to mend the broken relationship there is only one way out. And that is a divorce. Pls accept the fact that we sometimes make a mistake and pick the wrong partner. Then pls let there be a law that can undo that mistake.
Same and similar to abortion. We dont see “proper sex for the only purpose of procreation”. If that would be the case then I would be the father of 1000 kids (no kidding here) (god & heaven forbid). We dutch see sex for rather other purposes than procreation. And if I had sex only for procreation than I would only have sex once a year.
Sometimes during the act of making love something can go wrong. It may result in a unwanted, untimely, unintended pregnancy. Pls give me a law to undo that one stupid mistake.
taliban?
do you really know the word?
“We hebben gelijk, dus wij mogen op de paus schelden”
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3184/opinie/article/detail/3369201/2012/12/28/Wij-hebben-gelijk-dus-wij-mogen-op-de-paus-schelden.dhtml
This is a dutch opinion article – published in a national dutch quality newspaper – that pretty much describes the state of how most people feel. Using their freedom of speech. But sometimes it has a back-firing effect.
INdeed divorces are like salty dishes and can raise once’s blood pressure. However, God gave us water to rinse it down. Divorces in civilized nations ironically havd not dampened their respective faith in God. Religion and divorces have co-existed for hundreds of years in America and religion there is as strong. Catholic hurch for example must also look into human side of marriage. We all make human mistakes. No religion can stop bad marriages from splitting. Leaders of nations both in religion and in the legislative branches can make it harder to obtain divorce just as the same groups ought to make stop this drive-in marriage churches such those in Las Vegas where a couple can be married in as quick as 3 minutes. It takes longer to boil eggs at times. The catholkic church worries anything that may affect its collection. In America, the catholic chuch has a bigger problem than divorces; phedophilliac priests. In the past 70 years, the church has paid out close to one billion u.s. dollars to victims whom were abused involving young boys and girls. And yet the faithful remain as faithful because they look at the human sidfe of thsoe deviant priests. The church ought to do the same to their flock whom gotten themselves in to bad marriages. It should not make themn phariahs simply because it has its own to worry and thdeir sins to God and to the ordinary are the worst humans.
Pastor Ernie the fascist for no reason acted like a total deluded idiot, completely ignorant of the fact that we’re living in a secular state w/secular rights wherein the only thing that matters is patriotism.